Yigdal

יותר
15 נוב 2009 14:31 #1497 מאת rallisw
Yigdal נוצר על ידי rallisw
Where does the change in nusach, that some have, for the phrase "Yishlach l'kaytz yomin" to "Yishlach 'kaytz hayomin" come from?

Rallis

Minhag Avoseinu Torah Hee!

Please התחברות to join the conversation.

יותר
15 נוב 2009 21:06 #1498 מאת rallisw
תגובה מrallisw בדיון Yigdal
Two variations (Machzorim from 1720 & 1722), have from the standard text of Yigdal:

"Mabit l'souf dovor b'qadmosou" "Mabit l'souf dovor b'qadmoosou"

"Goumayl l'ish chesed k'mifolou" "Goumayl l'ish choseed k'mifolou"

This later variation seems to more correct because it contrasts the "Ish Chosid" with the "Rosho Ra"?

Rallis

Minhag Avoseinu Torah Hee!

Please התחברות to join the conversation.

יותר
24 פבר 2010 18:45 #1640 מאת MPerlman
תגובה מMPerlman בדיון Yigdal

Rallis wrote: This later variation seems to more correct because it contrasts the "Ish Chosid" with the "Rosho Ra"?

On the contrary, "Gomeil L'Ish Chesed" contrasts better with "Nosein L'Rasha Ra". "Ish" being the title for a human at a lofty level contrasts well with the "Rasha". "Chesed" and "Ra" contrast well also. But "Gomeil L'Ish Chasid" does not tell us what he is been granted, whereas in the case of the Rasha it is stated explicitly. "Ra" cannot be a description of the type of Rasha because all R'shaim are Ra.

MPerlman

Please התחברות to join the conversation.

יותר
26 פבר 2010 16:20 #1645 מאת MPerlman
תגובה מMPerlman בדיון Yigdal
It is interesting to note that all musical compositions (at least those that I have heard) of Yigdal seem to ignore the meaning of the words in the separation of the phrases. Examples are (a comma indicates the separation according to the melody):

נמצא ואין עת, אל מציאותו במקום: נמצא, ואין עת אל מציאותו
אחד ואין יחיד, כיחודו במקום: אחד, ואין יחיד כיחודו
נעלם וגם אין סוף, לאחדותו במקום: נעלם, וגם אין סוף לאחדותו
קדמון לכל דבר, אשר נברא במקום: קדמון, לכל דבר אשר נברא
ראשון ואין ראשית, לראשיתו במקום: ראשון, ואין ראשית לראשיתו
לא קם בישראל, כמשה עוד במקום: לא קם בישראל, כמשה עוד נביא
נביא ומביט, את תמונתו במקום: ומביט את תמונתו
תורת אמת נתן, לעמו קל במקום: תורת אמת, נתן לעמו קל
ולא ימיר דתו, לעולמים, לזולתו במקום: ולא ימיר, דתו לעולמים, לזולתו
צופה ויודע, סתרינו במקום: צופה, ויודע סתרינו
לפדות מחכי קץ, ישועתו במקום: לפדות מחכי, קץ ישועתו

Is there any Ashkenaz composition that pays attention to the meaning to the expense of the Arabic meter that has been employed in this poem?

MPerlman

Please התחברות to join the conversation.

יותר
26 פבר 2010 18:16 #1648 מאת Michael
תגובה מMichael בדיון Yigdal
Yigdal was written according to the Arabic meter, and although we can apply western melodies to it, we cannot change the Piyyut.
For example:
לא יחליף הקל ולא ימיר דתו לעולמים לזולתו
דתו goes with לעולמים לזולתו, although the meaning definitely is different.
In the Arabic meter the technique was that the words are sung together according to different rules (יתד יתד etc.), and not according to their meaning. The logic behind this is that the paytan relies on the singer's intelligence, that he'll manage to understand the meaning although the words are not sung in the most simple way that they could be.

Michael FRBSH

Please התחברות to join the conversation.

יותר
12 מרס 2010 14:34 #1667 מאת MPerlman
תגובה מMPerlman בדיון Yigdal

Michael wrote: In the Arabic meter the technique was that the words are sung together according to different rules (יתד יתד etc.), and not according to their meaning. The logic behind this is that the paytan relies on the singer's intelligence, that he'll manage to understand the meaning although the words are not sung in the most simple way that they could be.

Moshe Rosenwasser told me that Rav Breuer said that the technique was that the words were written according to Arabic meter but that this complex poetry was meant to please the sight only. And that the paytan relied on the singer's intelligence to know that it was not meant to be recited in this manner but rather according to its proper meaning. And thus Rav Breuer instituted, in several instances in Yigdal itself, that the phrases should be grouped differently than common tunes have accustomed us to doing.

MPerlman

Please התחברות to join the conversation.

יותר
12 מרס 2010 17:43 #1668 מאת Michael
תגובה מMichael בדיון Yigdal
All Sephardic and Yemenite Kehillos, who use the Arabic Meter regularly, use it according to the meter and not according to the logic, relying on the sayer to understand the meaning. This would indicate that this is the way it is meant to be done.

Michael FRBSH

Please התחברות to join the conversation.

Powered by פורום קוננה