Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home

More
27 Feb 2008 14:22 #84 by Altgold
Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home was created by Altgold
What is the accepted practice for Friday night and Shabbos day kiddush? Standing, sitting, etc. For the Shabbos day kiddush, does the Yekkish minhag begin with v'shamru?

Brian

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
02 Mar 2008 02:19 - 26 Jun 2014 00:44 #102 by Daniel
Replied by Daniel on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
R' Hamburger has told me that the Minhag is to stand for the Psukim and to sit for the Brachos. Therefore, while reciting ויכולו and ושמרו, the minhag is to stand. One then sits, both at night and during the day, while the brocho is being said.
On Yom Tov, since there are no psukim, one should sit for the whole Kiddush.
This was done even on Sukkos; one should sit in the sukka before the brocho of לישב בסוכה. The מהרי"ל was Makpid that the kiddush should be done sitting down (on Sukkos), unlike the רמב"ם (who says one should stand for Kiddush and only sit after the Bracha of לישב בסוכה).

Daniel

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
02 Mar 2008 05:25 #108 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
I would like to add that another minhag that was in the past and today is more common, is to stand both at night and in the day, throughout the whole Kiddush.

And as for where to start the Kiddush in the morning - the minhag is to start from V'shomru as you mentioned.

Michael

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
12 Aug 2009 19:43 #1284 by SBS
Replied by SBS on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
What is the correct minhag ashkenaz as it relates to standing/sitting for Kiddush and Havdala? Is it (as I practice at home) to stand for Vayechulu and then sit before saying the bracha on wine followed by the rest of Kiddush? I also sit for Havdala.

In shul I would imagine the reason it is said standing is because there is nothing recited by the Chazzan for a rabbim from a seated position so in these instances as well it is said standing.

Thanks,

Steven

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
13 Aug 2009 14:09 - 26 Jun 2014 00:44 #1308 by Daniel
Replied by Daniel on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
I asked R' Hamburger about Havdalah:
Is the Minhag to stand or sit by Havdalah?

His response:
.(בהבדלה נהוג לעמוד. (הגר"א חידש לישב, ויש סתירה בדבריו

Daniel

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
13 Aug 2009 21:35 #1309 by Litvak
Replied by Litvak on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
What is the mekor for being noheig to stand by havdoloh? If people sit by kiddush, according to the minhog above, why should havdoloh be done differently?

In general, I heard that there is an inyan of kevius, and sitting is more 'kevius'. Also, aren't Kiddush and Havdoloh (when Shabbos comes in and leaves) related? So licheora shouldn't we treat them similarly on that basis as well?

Litvak

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
20 Aug 2009 23:50 - 26 Jun 2014 00:45 #1348 by MPerlman
Replied by MPerlman on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home

הגר"א חידש לישב, ויש סתירה בדבריו

Where is this סתירה?



Considering that Kiddush is not said in shul in order to fulfill any individual's obligation to make kiddush but rather to publicize the Shabbos, it is understandable that we stand when kiddush is made. On the other hand at home, where we are being motzi others, it makes sense therefore, that we should sit when we make the Brachos because of K'vi'us. In that case, I think three questions are in order.

1. If there would be guests that require Kiddush and they would be eating in shul, would Kiddush be recited for them seated?

2. Considering the above, it makes sense that we stand for Havdalah in shul. However, if there are people in shul that are being yotzei with the Havdala of the chazzan (which happens much more frequently that by Kiddush), should Havdalah not be recited seated?

3. Considering all this, should not Havdalah be recited sitting, at home?

4. If the reason is not because of K'vi'us, and we recite the p'sukim of Havdalah and the Brachos of Kiddush and Havdala standing at least in shul, why do we not recite Kiddush (all of it, not just the pesukim) standing also at home?

In short, some basic understanding is missing here which will take into account both shul and home, people needing to be yotzei and the need to publicize the Shabbos at its entry and exit.

MPerlman

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
21 Aug 2009 20:44 - 26 Jun 2014 00:46 #1359 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
The Gr'o writes in Bi'ur Hagr'o that one should sit. On the other hand there is a Eidus from ר' חיים מוולוזין that the Gr'o himself used to stand, and for that reason ר' חיים מוולוזין stood also. This is brought in the book Aliyos Eliyohu, page 32. Also ר' יצחק זאב סולובייצ'יק, The Brisker Rov, stood in Havdolo.
In Havdolo one stands because we are accompanying the queen, the Shabbos, and we do that standing.
In Shul everyone stands also in Kiddush, because the reason to sit is for Kevi'us, and this is needed only when one is Motzi someone else. In shul Kiddush is not done to be Motzi anyone, as can be seen in the Or Zaru'a (חלק א סימן תשנב ס"ק ט), that even at his times, about 800 years ago, there were no guests Yotze from the Kiddush in shul. If there will be someone Yotze in Kiddush in shul (as we are thinking to do in KAYJ, see this posting ), it would be an interesting question if then the Mekadesh would stand or sit.

Michael FRBSH

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
22 Sep 2009 13:25 #1418 by Daniel
Replied by Daniel on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
On the second night of Rosh Hashanah, according to the way R' Hamburger said, we sat for kiddush and then stood for Havdallah. Was this the correct way to do it?

Daniel

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
29 Sep 2009 01:04 #1429 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
In Yaknhaz Kiddush, the Havdolo is secondary, and is Botel to the Kiddush. Therefore one sits in the whole kiddush. (In addition, it is not a regular Havdolo, but it is Havdolo from Kodesh to Kodesh).

Michael FRBSH

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
27 Jun 2014 08:52 #2407 by Israel
Replied by Israel on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
So what about when we are being motzei others for havdalah? Wouldn't we need to sit for the brachos just as we do for kiddish.

R' Moshe Tendler tells the story of how R' Joseph Soloveitchik once gave a big speech about the importance of sitting for havadalah to be motzei others. That motzei Shabbos R' Tendler observed R' Soloveitchik standing for havadalah. When asked about the contradiction, R' Soloveitchik said, "my father stands, so I stand."

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
24 Jul 2014 02:07 #2411 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
At Havdolloh one stands, and so do all who are Yotzeh. This is the Psak of the Rishonim and the R'mo. (There is a Sofek what the Gr'o held, and maybe the Gr'o held to stand).
The reason that Havdolloh is different, is because the way to take the Shabbos out (ללוות את השבת) is by standing, therefore standing is considered קביעות.

Michael FRBSH

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
09 Nov 2014 20:38 #2454 by Israel
Replied by Israel on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
Don't we escort the Shabbos in on Friday night Kiddush or do we do that while singing Shalom Aleichem?

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
21 Nov 2014 16:11 - 21 Nov 2014 16:12 #2474 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
Only when we take the Shabbos out we stand.

Sholom Aleichem in any case is not an ancient Minhag, (see this post ), so for many years there was no standing during Sholom Aleichem (since it was not said).

Michael FRBSH

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
02 Dec 2014 22:00 #2481 by SBS
Replied by SBS on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
I have found that these days many are noheig to make kiddush by day on shabbos starting at Al Keyn.....how did this come about?

Steven

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Powered by Kunena Forum