Seder Haboker
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						06 Feb 2009 04:11				#878
		by SBS
	
	
		
			
	
			
			 		
													
	
				Seder Haboker was created by SBS			
			
				Can you outline the correct seder haboker, i.e. when Ma Tovu is said, when Adon Olam is said, when Birchas Hatorah is said. My understanding from gemarah B'rachos is that no pesukim should be said before bircas hatorah. Yet we see in many siddurim that Ma Tovu, Adon Olam, etc., is printed before birchas hatorah. Please outline what could/should be said before birchas hatorah as well as what should be said at home vs. shul and the proper order.
Thanks,
Steven
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Steven
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- Michael
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						08 Feb 2009 02:33				#883
		by Michael
	
	
		
			
	
	
			 		
													
	
				Replied by Michael on topic Seder Haboker			
			
				Mah Tovu is said by every individual when he enters Shul.
Adon Olom is the beginning of Shacharis, said by the Chazzan Tachton (second Chazzan) by the Omud. next come Al Netilat Yodayim, Asher Yotzar, and Elokai Neshomo, and then Birkos Asher nosan Lasechvi till Gomel Chassodim Tovim and Yehi Rotzon.
After that comes Ribon Kol Ho'olomim till Omar Hashem, Birkos Hatoroh, Parshas Hatomid, The Posuk Veshochat Oso, (On Shabbos Uvyom Hashabbos and on Rosh Chodesh Uvroshei Chodsheichem), Eizehu Mekomon and Bishlosh Esre Midos Hatoroh Nidroshes, and Yehi Rotzon Sheyiboneh Beis Hamikdosh. Next come Birkos Tallis and Tefillin, and then Boruch She;omar and Psukei Dezimroh.
According to Minhag Ashkenaz, Psukim said Derech Tefilloh do not require Birkos Hatoroh before them. Minhag Polin was more strict regarding Psukim before Birkos Hashachar, therefore Birkos Hatoroh was said after Asher Yotzar (and later moved to after Elokai Neshomo), to make it would be before the Posuk at the end of Ribon Kol Ho'olomim "בעת ההיא אביא אתכם ובעת קבצי אתכם" etc., but even according to Minhag Polin Mah Tovu was said before Birkos Hatoroh.
Michael
					Adon Olom is the beginning of Shacharis, said by the Chazzan Tachton (second Chazzan) by the Omud. next come Al Netilat Yodayim, Asher Yotzar, and Elokai Neshomo, and then Birkos Asher nosan Lasechvi till Gomel Chassodim Tovim and Yehi Rotzon.
After that comes Ribon Kol Ho'olomim till Omar Hashem, Birkos Hatoroh, Parshas Hatomid, The Posuk Veshochat Oso, (On Shabbos Uvyom Hashabbos and on Rosh Chodesh Uvroshei Chodsheichem), Eizehu Mekomon and Bishlosh Esre Midos Hatoroh Nidroshes, and Yehi Rotzon Sheyiboneh Beis Hamikdosh. Next come Birkos Tallis and Tefillin, and then Boruch She;omar and Psukei Dezimroh.
According to Minhag Ashkenaz, Psukim said Derech Tefilloh do not require Birkos Hatoroh before them. Minhag Polin was more strict regarding Psukim before Birkos Hashachar, therefore Birkos Hatoroh was said after Asher Yotzar (and later moved to after Elokai Neshomo), to make it would be before the Posuk at the end of Ribon Kol Ho'olomim "בעת ההיא אביא אתכם ובעת קבצי אתכם" etc., but even according to Minhag Polin Mah Tovu was said before Birkos Hatoroh.
Michael
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						09 Feb 2009 14:22				#885
		by SBS
	
	
		
			
	
			
			 		
													
	
				Replied by SBS on topic Seder Haboker			
			
				Shouldn't Al Netilat Yodayim, Asher Yotzar, and Elokai Neshomo be said at home as part of the seder haboker when one wakes up? Are you saing that it should be said by the Chazzan as part of the davening and it is assumed individuals say it home?
What's the source for minhag ashkenaz to allow pesukim to be said that are not part of or are not derech ha' tefiloh?
Thanks,
Steven
					What's the source for minhag ashkenaz to allow pesukim to be said that are not part of or are not derech ha' tefiloh?
Thanks,
Steven
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						09 Feb 2009 14:42				#886
		by Michael
	
	
		
			
	
			
			 		
													
	
				Replied by Michael on topic Seder Haboker			
			
				All Brochos are said in shul, this way one can answer Omen on them. See Shulchan Oruch Siman ו seif ב who brings this Shito (and mentions that the Sephardim have a different Minhag).
The R'mo in Siman מו Seif ט says that Minhag Ashkenaz is that Psukim said דרך תחנונים can be said before Birkos Hatoroh.
Michael
					The R'mo in Siman מו Seif ט says that Minhag Ashkenaz is that Psukim said דרך תחנונים can be said before Birkos Hatoroh.
Michael
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- YCohen
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						10 Feb 2009 14:18				#888
		by YCohen
	
	
		
			
	
			
			 		
													
	
				Replied by YCohen on topic Seder Haboker			
			
				Besides for דרך תחנונים , pesukim for שמירה apparently may also be said before birchos haTorah. The Maharam M'Rothenburg had a kabboloh from R. Yehuda heChasid to say the posuk שמע ישראל while leaving the house in the morning before shacharis.
מקור: תשב"ץ סי' רמח
YCohen
					מקור: תשב"ץ סי' רמח
YCohen
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						04 Aug 2009 14:15				#1187
		by MPerlman
	
	
		
			
	
			
			 		
													
	
				Replied by MPerlman on topic Seder Haboker			
			
				In shul, since the Tzibbur is supposed to answer Omein to the Brachos of the Shatz, when is the Tzibbur supposed to say Birkos HaShachar?
MPerlman
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						04 Aug 2009 21:19				#1196
		by SBS
	
	
		
			
				
Isn't the point that the individual need not say the brachos as they are Yotzay by answering Omen to the Shatz?
Steven
					
	
			
			 		
													
	
				Replied by SBS on topic Seder Haboker			
			MPerlman wrote: In shul, since the Tzibbur is supposed to answer Omein to the Brachos of the Shatz, when is the Tzibbur supposed to say Birkos HaShachar?
Isn't the point that the individual need not say the brachos as they are Yotzay by answering Omen to the Shatz?
Steven
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- Michael
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						04 Aug 2009 22:36				#1199
		by Michael
	
	
		
			
	
			
			 		
													
	
				Replied by Michael on topic Seder Haboker			
			
				The reason the Brochos are said out loud is so the Tzibbur can answer Omen. The Tzibbur usually will say the Brochos before the Chazzan starts, and this way one can hear all of the Brochos and answer them properly.
Michael FRBSH
					Michael FRBSH
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