Aveinu Malkeinu
- Daniel
- Topic Author
- Offline
Less
More
- Posts: 221
- Thank you received: 2
03 Oct 2008 11:41 #641
by Daniel
Aveinu Malkeinu was created by Daniel
I have a few old Siddurim and they have differing orders of the Aveinu Malkeinu's. Can the proper order be posted? Thanks!
Daniel
Daniel
Please Log in to join the conversation.
- Michael
- Offline
03 Oct 2008 15:22 #643
by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Aveinu Malkeinu
There were and are different minhogim for Ovinu Malkeinu. There was Minhag Ashkenaz, and a more expanded minhag in France. Later Minhag Polin was based on the minhag of France. In minhag Ashkenaz there were different variations in the order things were said.
Michael FRBSH
P.S. In KAYJ we follow minhag FFDM, as seen in the Rodelheim Siddur, page 234-237.
Michael FRBSH
P.S. In KAYJ we follow minhag FFDM, as seen in the Rodelheim Siddur, page 234-237.
Please Log in to join the conversation.
- rallisw
- Offline
Less
More
- Posts: 245
- Thank you received: 0
24 Mar 2009 14:27 #950
by rallisw
Minhag Avoseinu Torah Hee!
Replied by rallisw on topic Aveinu Malkeinu
From what I understand, Bnei Ashkenaz say Ovinu Malkeinu only during the Aseres Yemay Shuvoh.
1) When did it become the practice for Minhag Polin to say it on a Taanis Tzibur?
2) Why is it not said by MP on Taanis Esther at Mincho?
3) When did Ovinu Malkeinu become so lengthy and why do MP shuls not say it entirely aloud?
4) Why is the last line in MP shuls sung aloud rather than silently?
Rallis
1) When did it become the practice for Minhag Polin to say it on a Taanis Tzibur?
2) Why is it not said by MP on Taanis Esther at Mincho?
3) When did Ovinu Malkeinu become so lengthy and why do MP shuls not say it entirely aloud?
4) Why is the last line in MP shuls sung aloud rather than silently?
Rallis
Minhag Avoseinu Torah Hee!
Please Log in to join the conversation.
- YCohen
- Offline
24 Mar 2009 14:27 #951
by YCohen
Replied by YCohen on topic Aveinu Malkeinu
See Rabbi Hamburger's footnote 42 to סי' קלו in מנהגים דק"ק וורמיישא where many of these things are discussed. In short, Minhag Ashkenaz was makpid on 37 stanzas while the French (which in turn became the Polish minhag) added stanzas which upset the Chasidei Ashkenaz for messing up the gematrios of רמ"ז תיבות found in the 37 stanzas.
YCohen
YCohen
Please Log in to join the conversation.
- Michael
- Offline
29 Mar 2009 03:04 #965
by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Aveinu Malkeinu
The Minhag to say Ovinu Malkeinu on Ta'anis is about 250 years old. Ths was not accepted in all of Eastern Europe, in Galicia they still say Ovinu Malkeinu only at Aseres Yemei Teshuvoh.
The reason we say the last one silently is out of shame, that we don't have any good deeds.
According to Minhag Ashkenaz all of Ovinu Malkeinu is said out loud, so it is very clear that the last one is said silently. According to Minhag Polin this is not seen as clearly because many of the Ovinu Malkeinu's are said silently, but there is definitely no specific minhag to say the last one out loud.
Michael FRBSH
The reason we say the last one silently is out of shame, that we don't have any good deeds.
According to Minhag Ashkenaz all of Ovinu Malkeinu is said out loud, so it is very clear that the last one is said silently. According to Minhag Polin this is not seen as clearly because many of the Ovinu Malkeinu's are said silently, but there is definitely no specific minhag to say the last one out loud.
Michael FRBSH
Please Log in to join the conversation.
- MPerlman
- Offline
Less
More
- Posts: 121
- Thank you received: 1
04 Aug 2009 14:14 #1186
by MPerlman
Replied by MPerlman on topic Aveinu Malkeinu
YCohen correctly stated that the Chassidei Ashkenaz were upset with the messing up of the 247 words that are in Avinu Malkeinu. See Siddur Raabeinu Shlomo MiGermaiza p. 222.
However, in our own Minhag Ashkenaz our AM contains more than 247 words. And upon analysis of every list in the Rishonim that I could get my hands on (and there are not many), nobody has an Avinu Malkeinu with 247 words. Where that Nusach is, I do not know.
MPerlman
However, in our own Minhag Ashkenaz our AM contains more than 247 words. And upon analysis of every list in the Rishonim that I could get my hands on (and there are not many), nobody has an Avinu Malkeinu with 247 words. Where that Nusach is, I do not know.
MPerlman
Please Log in to join the conversation.