Birkas hamozon minhogim (nusach, melody etc.)

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08 Jan 2009 00:50 #811 by meirk
In our minhog, do we say "ko'omur pouseach es yodecho..." toward the end of the first brocho of Birkas Hamozoun?

Toda

Meir

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20 Jan 2009 19:43 #825 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Birkas hamozon minhogim (nusach, melody etc.)
According to the Rambam and the Sephardic Nusach it is said.
In Sidurei Ashkenaz this Posuk does not appear. In the Machzor Vitri the Posuk appears, but the Machzor Vitri is the French Nusach and not Nusach Ashkenaz, and, in addition, some times there was Sephardic influence which caused a change in the version of the Machzor Vitri, so we can not be sure that the Machzor Vitri himself recorded it as part of the Nusach.
R' Yaakov Chazzan of London (in Siddur Etz Chayim, which follows the French Nusach) writes "and one should not say Poseach Es Yodecho). This may mean that the French Nusach at one time was to say it (as seems from the Machzor Vitri), and he tried to change that, or that it was not the French Nusach ever, but some individuals tried to introduce it there, therefore he inserted a notice that one should not accept their change.

Michael FRBSH

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13 Feb 2009 05:40 #890 by meirk
In the Birkas Hamozaun, is the minhog to say "Horachamon hu yishlach lonu es Eliyo" or Eliyohu?

Is the birkas hamozaun as is in the Roedelheim the right nusach? Or are there some shibushim?

Toda
Meir

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20 Feb 2009 14:09 - 18 Aug 2019 04:58 #898 by YCohen
Rabbi Hamburger once told me once that הרחמן הוא ישבר עלנו מעל צוארנו is really supposed to be הרחמן הוא ישבר עול גוים מעל צוארנו.

YCohen

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20 Feb 2009 17:12 #900 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Birkas hamozon minhogim (nusach, melody etc.)
The Nusach is Eliyoh Hanovi.
In the Rodelheim some words are different than the Nusach of the Rishonim (and in some other Siddurim of later prints the nusach is closer to the nusach of the Rishonim), and from Horachmon and on there are many changes.

Michael FRBSH

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04 Mar 2009 01:29 #924 by meirk
It's interesting to note, that nussach chabad is "Horachamon hu yishbour oul gouyim meal tsavaorenu"

Meir

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07 Jul 2009 13:20 #1111 by rallisw
Replied by rallisw on topic Birkas hamozon minhogim (nusach, melody etc.)
When reciting Birkas HaMozoun with a Mehzumon, does one respond Omayn to the HoRachamons of the Leader? Does one recite the HoRachamons oneself?

Rallis

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19 Jul 2009 02:05 #1141 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Birkas hamozon minhogim (nusach, melody etc.)
Until 300 years ago, Birkas Hamozon was said by one and he was Motzi everyone. Later on, when bentchers became more handy everyone started Bentching on his own, and two different Minhogim evolved - one was that everyone said (sang) together the Bentching, and the other was that one Bentches out loud and everyone Bentches silently.
According to the first Minhag there is no place for answering Omen (since everyone is saying everything together). According to the second Minhag, although by the Brochos people were Makpid to finish there Brocho before the leader, to answer Omen on his Brocho, no such Kpeida was for the Horachamon.

Michael FRBSH

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20 Jul 2009 23:31 #1146 by SBS
Do we know the origin of the melody used for Birchas Hamazon that is commonly used today? Are there other melodies that were used in Ashkenaz?

Steven

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26 Jul 2009 02:49 #1150 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Birkas hamozon minhogim (nusach, melody etc.)
I asked Rav Hamburger and he said he didn't do enough research on this topic yet. He didn't know of any other melody for Birkas Hamozon, except for several different variations here and there. (As far as the dating - it definitely isn't more than 300 years old, but it may be more recent).

Michael

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26 Jul 2009 02:50 #1151 by Goldmeier
Replied by Goldmeier on topic Birkas hamozon minhogim (nusach, melody etc.)
I would like to add the following questions:

1. What about the adding of "Tehilas Hashem" at the end of Shir Ha'Maalos - is it the yekkishe minhag to add those psukim or not?

2. I was always taught that the yekkishe minhag for bentching is to say only until "Al Yechasreinu", and no further - during the weekday. On shabbos/Yom Tov, however, bentching is completed to the end. Is this correct or is the yekkishe minhag different than what I described?

Goldmeier

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31 Jul 2009 16:26 #1164 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Birkas hamozon minhogim (nusach, melody etc.)
Minhag Ashkenaz is to say shir Hamaalos and conclude with Tehilas Hashem. This is because there are two shitos with regard to what is the Limud Torah that one should include in his meal. According to Seder Hayom it is Shir Hamaalos and according to the Ar'i Z'l it is Tehillas Hashem.

The known and common Minhag Ashkenaz is to always say all of Birkas Hamazon (including Horachamons), both on Shabbos and week days.

Michael FRBSH

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04 Aug 2009 14:19 - 31 Dec 2012 02:08 #1189 by MPerlman
Replied by MPerlman on topic Birkas hamozon minhogim (nusach, melody etc.)

In the Birkas Hamozaun, is the minhog to say "Horachamon hu yishlach lonu es Eliyo" or Eliyohu?


According to Rabbi Hamburger, the correct Nusach of this haRachamon is as follows:
הָרַחֲמָן. הוּא יִשְׁלַח לָֽנוּ אֶת־אֵלִיָּה הַנָּבִיא זָכוּר לַטּוֹב, וִיבָרֵךְ אוֹתָֽנוּ כָּל אֶחָד וְאֶחָד מִמֶּֽנּוּ בִּשְׁמוֹ

MPerlman

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04 Aug 2009 14:22 #1190 by MPerlman
Replied by MPerlman on topic Birkas hamozon minhogim (nusach, melody etc.)

Until 300 years ago, Birkas Hamozon was said by one and he was Motzi everyone. Later on, when bentchers became more handy everyone started Bentching on his own

People did not start Bentching on their own until the Rosh instituted that this be done because most people could no longer concentrate properly on what the M'zamein was saying.

MPerlman

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04 Aug 2009 21:47 #1197 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Birkas hamozon minhogim (nusach, melody etc.)
The Rosh was way before the time Bentchers became handy.
The Rosh lived about 700 years ago.

Michael

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