Salt on Challoh/bread

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29 Sep 2008 02:40 #635 by meirk
Salt on Challoh/bread was created by meirk
What's the ta'am to put salt on the chalo? Is it a kabolo minhog (lematek et hadinim)?

Meir

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29 Sep 2008 14:01 #636 by TsviRogin
Replied by TsviRogin on topic Salt on Challoh/bread
Actually those who dip always dip, whether Shabbes Challah or weekday bread.

There are two reasons - one is a halachic reason - to make the bread taste better and the other is a kabbalistic reason - the table is a mizbeach and the korbanot were dipped in salt.

Since usually our bread today and for some time contains additional ingredients (besides the simple flour and water) the first reason is not so applicable and the dipping in salt not required.

At one of my sheva berachos in the home of Rav Baruch Borchardt z"l in Washingtone Heights, Rav Yisroel Belsky shlita said that in Frankfort, at the time of Shabbatai Tsvi (ym"sh), the rabbonim made a gezeirah not to dip the motsi into salt as a method of discerning between the followers of Shabbatai Tsvi and the followers of the rabbonim. Since the halachic reason was not pressing, the followers of the rabbonim would listen to the takanna. Since the followers of Sha"tz were very big on kabbolah, they would not mevateir on dipping the motsi into salt.

Rav Belsky held that the takkana of Frankfort was binding in Washington Heights.


Tsvi Rogin

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03 Oct 2008 02:26 #640 by meirk
Replied by meirk on topic Salt on Challoh/bread
Very interesting!

And what do we do on Rosh Hashono with the honey? Do we dip the chalo in the honey and salt, or only in the honey? (I saw that in Noheg Katson Yossef he writes that one should dip into honey and salt).

Meir

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03 Oct 2008 15:34 #644 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Salt on Challoh/bread
There are different minhogim regarding salt on these days.

Michael FRBSH

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12 Aug 2009 23:06 #1286 by MPerlman
Replied by MPerlman on topic Salt on Challoh/bread

There are two reasons - one is a halachic reason - to make the bread taste better and the other is a kabbalistic reason - the table is a mizbeach and the korbanot were dipped in salt.

The second reason is brought in the Ramo in Shulchan Aruch (167:5)

BTW, we have a Minhag not to dip the challa in salt on Friday night. My Opa zt"l explained that this is because there were no Korbanos put on the Mizbei'ach on Friday night, hence neither was there salt.

MPerlman

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13 Aug 2009 14:06 - 28 Jun 2012 04:47 #1307 by Daniel
Replied by Daniel on topic Salt on Challoh/bread
I asked this question to R' Hamburger (I heard it in the name of the Chasam Sofer):
Is there an Ashkenaz Minhag not to use salt on Friday night or is this a Minhag of the Chasam Sofer?

His reply:
מניעת מלח בליל שבת הוא מנהג של משפחות בודדות, ולא מנהג אשכנז כללי

Daniel

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27 Aug 2009 00:54 #1366 by SBS
Replied by SBS on topic Salt on Challoh/bread
Must the salt be poured on the table and the challah dipped in it or is one supposed to sprinkle the salt onto the challah?

Steven

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28 Aug 2009 20:18 - 31 Dec 2012 02:02 #1373 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Salt on Challoh/bread
According to Halocho there is no difference if the Challoh is dipped in the salt, or the salt is sprinkled on the Challoh.
According to Kaballah we find that the Or Tzadikim (Rav Meir Poppers, about 300 years ago) mentions that one should dip the Challoh in the salt (because salt is דין and חלה is רחמים, so the Challoh should be above the salt). In Ashkenaz this was not the Minhag. The Leket Yosher brings that you put the salt on the Challoh.

The Minhag is to put salt on the bread or Challoh on Shabbos even though it has salt already, but on weekdays usually people rely on the salt that has been put in the bread when it was baked.

Michael FRBSH

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03 Jan 2012 04:01 #2072 by Yisroel Strauss
Replied by Yisroel Strauss on topic Salt on Challoh/bread
The following sentence appears above (I took the liberty of changing the spelling of Frankfurt to the original):
“Rav Belsky held that the takkana of Frankfurt was binding in Washington Heights (WH).” (It implies based on the preceding paragraphs that one is not allowed to dip bread in salt in WH.)

My main problem is a related pesak from Rav Shimon Schwab, ZT”L, that seems to run counter to Rav Belsky, Shlit”a’s, position. However since salt and Rav Belsky’s position on Minhag Frankfurt in WH is the topic at hand, I have to logically start with that.

Consider the following facts:

Although, in general, Rav Breuer, ZT”L, based Minhag KAJ on Minhag Frankfurt, he did make deliberate changes such as saying Yizkor on the 3 Regalim and YH”K.

I believe, that in no period post-World War II, were people from Frankfurt the majority in KAJ. (Sizable plurality until 1990, yes, but not majority.)
From speaking to some descendants of Frankfurters it seems to me that even in Frankfurt, pre World War II, bread was dipped into salt (maybe their memories of their fathers’ minhag were mistaken but I assume at least one them spoke correctly.)

From 1940 until fairly recently, KAJ was one of several large shuls in WH that followed the German rituals (including the one my parents (A”H) were members of) and there are other shuls in WH as well (i.e., those who say Berich Shemeh, which is definitely not Nusach Frankfurt).

Based on any of the above I would have to conclude that people in WH can continue to dip bread in salt.

I have davened nusach KAJ since 1975, even when I am not there. Nevertheless , Rav Schwab, ZT”L, told me that I should do what my father (a native of the small village of Geroda) did with regard to when the 11th of Tishri falls on Sunday (make a berachah on Besamim in the usual place in Havdalah) despite the explicit Minhag FFD”M and KAJ to omit Besamim! I am sure, had I asked him about dipping bread in salt he would have also told me to do as my father did (even if there were a Frankfurt takkanah against it).

Finally as a related manner I would like to mention that Nusach Frankfurt and KAJ did not eradicate all rituals based on (non-Talmudical) Kabbalistic practices (e.g., the Leviyim wash the Kohanim’s hands. Note that in the Mikdash the Kohanim washed their hands and feet by themselves).

Yisroel (aka Sidney) Strauss, WH

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08 Jan 2012 01:33 - 31 Dec 2012 02:03 #2074 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Salt on Challoh/bread

Finally as a related manner I would like to mention that Nusach Frankfurt and KAJ did not eradicate all rituals based on (non-Talmudical) Kabbalistic practices (e.g., the Leviyim wash the Kohanim’s hands. Note that in the Mikdash the Kohanim washed their hands and feet by themselves).

Washing hands for the Kohanim isn't a complete proof, since we do find in the Maharam of Rothenburg that someone else (not the Kohen himself) would wash hands for the Kohanim before the Duchan. In addition this Minhag was brought in the Shulchan Oruch, and he says the Zohar is an אסמכתא for the Minhag that was already accepted in his days.

But we actually find some real Kabbalistic practices in Frankfurt and Ashkenaz.
For example:
Walking around the table at Friday night is according to the Ar"i.
The Tikun recited on the nights of Shavuos and Hoshano Rabboh.
Kabbolas Shabbos.
The saying of "Hashem Hashem" (the thirteen Middos) on Rosh Hashono and Yom Kippur.
Tehillas Hashem Yedaber Pi etc. after Shir Hamalos (at the end of meals).

Anything that didn't contradict the Masores, was sometimes accepted by the Gedolim and then practiced in Ashkenaz.

Michael FRBSH

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26 Jun 2014 02:16 #2406 by Israel
Replied by Israel on topic Salt on Challoh/bread
So is the Frankfurt minhag not to dip in salt on Friday night only or during the day too?

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24 Jul 2014 02:13 #2412 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Salt on Challoh/bread
The Minhag is to dip the Challoh in the morning in salt. Some families had a Minhag not to dip the Challoh at Friday night (the most well known family with this Minhag was the Chassam Sofer's family). Two reasons were given for this: 1) At Friday night no sacrifices were brought on the Mizbe'ach. 2) The salt function in the opposite way than the garlic, and for the reason of Takonas Ezra to eat garlic on Friday night, salt was not put on the Challoh (although it was put in other foods).

Michael FRBSH

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24 Jul 2014 23:16 #2414 by DDelaney
Replied by DDelaney on topic Salt on Challoh/bread
According to Minhag Ashkenaz is salt put on challah or bread only on Shabbos/Yontif and not on weekdays?
This seems to be the practice of many if not the actual minhag.

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