Seder Minhogim

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11 Mar 2010 02:08 #1660 by rallisw
Seder Minhogim was created by rallisw
What are some of the unique Seder minhogim practiced by MA?

Rallis

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11 Mar 2010 14:22 #1663 by Schemuel
Replied by Schemuel on topic Seder Minhogim
My son Zechariah was asking me, if Jekkish Sedorim are very different from a Seder amongst other people.

I told him, that I can only think of four differences, apart from the regular slight variances in Birkas HaMozzon & no Mayim Acharonim during the entire year; Namely:
1) No Sargenes [Kittel]
2) Omission of verse : "vOmar Loch bDomayich Hayi, vOmar Loch bDomayich Hayi"
3) Don't eat an egg at beginning of Shulchon Oreich
4) 4th Cup after "Ki Lo No'eh" instead of after Yishtabach.

Did I forget any other differences or are these the only differences?

Kol Tuv


Schemuel

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12 Mar 2010 00:49 #1664 by DDelaney
Replied by DDelaney on topic Seder Minhogim
Some German families omit Shir Hamaalos before bensching at the seder.

David

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12 Mar 2010 00:49 #1665 by DDelaney
Replied by DDelaney on topic Seder Minhogim
My grandmother was very adamant that the karpas should be parsley and nothing else would do.
I don't know if this is a particulary German custom or only her family's preference.

David

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12 Mar 2010 14:31 - 23 Apr 2014 13:58 #1666 by MPerlman
Replied by MPerlman on topic Seder Minhogim

What are some of the unique Seder minhogim practiced MA?

I have tried to cull from Rabbi Hamburger's Handbook for Living Ashkenaz those Minhagim for the Seder Night which are different than other communities. I have probably missed some things. I hope that the English version of the Handbook will be available next Pesach. Translation is courtesy of Reuven Poupko.

1. Hallel is not recited in synagogue on the Seder night. Kiddush is also not recited in synagogue.
2. Greeting one another after services on the Seder night with the salutation “Bau gut” (Build well).
3. In ancient times sheets were hung on the walls of the room as an adornment, similarly to the sukkah decorations of our times. Recently the custom has become to adorn the walls with a decorative cloth called a Zvehl, which measures some four-and-a-half feet in height and one-and-a-half feet in width. The cloth is embroidered with designs, images associated with Pesach, inspiring sayings, and the names of the embroiderers.
4. In many families the leader of the Seder wears a Sargenes (kittel) and a white head covering. The Sargenes comes to remind the participants of the eventuality of death at a time when we are emulating the proud behavior of royalty. In some families the Sargenes is donned even if the leader is in mourning. In other families the leader wears Yom Tov clothing.
5. Blessing the children as on any other Shabbos and Yom Tov.
6. Seder Plate to be arranged as is brought in the Ramo in Shulchan Aruch and not like the Arizal or the Gra.
7. The Cup of Eliyahu is poured before Kiddush. Some fill it gradually, pouring a quarter each time the Four Cups are filled.
8. In Ashkenaz the women are considered distinguished, and thus are required to recline along with the men, in the custom of free people.
9. The Maharil maintained that the karpas of Chazal is ipuch (Apium graveolens), which is known as celery. While the Chasam Sofer’s opinion was that the karpas should be eaten raw, the Korban Nesanel and the Nachal Eshkol maintained that it is preferable to eat it cooked.
10. The common Ashkenazic custom is to dip the karpas in vinegar rather than in salt water.
11. The leader breaks the middle matzah unevenly and sets the larger half aside for the afikoman, placing it in an embroidered case.
It is customary for the leader to hold the case over his shoulder, walk back and forth, and say:

ככה יצאו אבותינו ממצרים: מִשְׁאֲרֹתָם צְרֻרֹת בְּשִׂמְלֹתָם עַל שִׁכְמָם

Some walk with a cane, to demonstrate the words, umakelchem beyedchem. Some step over a container of water to recall the Splitting of the Sea.
12. In order to keep the children awake, some allow them to “steal” the afikoman and then give them a present in return for it. During the times of the Rishonim this was not the practice. Instead, they held the children’s attention by playfully removing items from the table and then returning them. The objection of many Ashkenazic authorities to “stealing” the afikoman persisted into later generations. Some even gave the children presents for refraining from grabbing the afikoman, and others would hide it themselves and give presents to those who found it.
13. Some open the door before Ha Lachma so that anyone standing outside can enter and join the meal.
14. The matzos are uncovered and the egg and bone are removed from the table. (The egg and bone are reminiscent of the Korban Pesach and Korban Chaggigah. They are removed in order to emphasize that they do not have the holiness of actual sacrifices.) All the participants raise the Seder plate together and recite Ha Lachma. Afterward, the egg and bone are replaced on the Seder plate.
15. When saying Dam va’eish vesimeros-ashan, three drops of wine are removed from the cup with the little or ring finger at mention of each of these three words. Some do not remove wine at these three words. A drop is removed in the same manner at mention of each of the ten plagues and at each word of the abbreviation, Detzach adash be’achav.
16. The leader takes up the three matzos and recites two blessings. When he recites Hamotzi he has in mind the upper matzah and when he recites Al Achilas Matzah he has in mind the broken matzah. He takes a kezayis of the upper matzah and of the broken matzah and eats them both together while reclining on the left. It is not necessary to dip the matzah in salt, but some do. Some follow the opinion of the Nachal Eshkol, which requires that the leader first finish eating before distributing portions of matzah to the rest of the participants, who recite their own blessings. At a Seder with many participants, some follow the opinion of the Yad HaLevi. According to this opinion, only the leader and his wife partake of the matzah from the Seder plate, and the rest are given whole matzos which they eat along with the leader after reciting their own blessings. Others follow the opinion of the Chasam Sofer, who says that the leader recites only Hamotzi for all the participants, as on any Shabbos or Yom Tov, and gives them pieces of the matzos on the Seder plate. In such a case, the procedure is as follows: The leader takes up the three matzos and recites Hamotzi on behalf of all the participants, who answer amen. Thus the requirement of lechem mishneh is fulfilled. The leader then gives a piece of the top and middle matzos to each participant, and when everyone is ready, all recite Al Achilas Matzah together and eat two kezeisim.
17. One secures together a kezayis of the bottom matzah and a kezayis of maror and eats them while reclining to the left. There is no basis to assume that koreich is a modern sandwich. For sake of convenience, most people either wrap the maror leaves around the matzah, or spread horseradish between two pieces of matzah.
18. Many people have the custom of eating hardboiled or roasted eggs at the beginning of the Seder meal as a reminder of the Churban. Some eat the egg from the Seder plate. Some add eggs to the soup. The halachic authorities of Ashkenaz decided that roasted chicken or meat should not be eaten at the Seder meal; however, roasted fish is permissible since it does not require shechitah (halachic slaughter) and thus cannot be taken for a korban.
19. The afikoman should be eaten before halachic midnight. However, some Ashkenazic sages did not insist on this practice because the afikoman is a rabbinic mitzvah marking the korban chaggigah, which was eaten before midnight during the times of the Beis Hamikdash (Holy Temple). Moreover, rushing to eat the afikoman before midnight may cut short the biblical mitzvah of recounting the Exodus, as the fulfillment of that mitzvah may depend on having matzah and maror remaining to eat.
20. It is customary to hang a small piece of the afikoman from both Seder nights on a wall or to keep them in a drawer in recollection of the Exodus and as a symbol for warding off evil on the roads. For this reason some keep this piece of matzah in their pocket when going on a journey. Therefore, it is advisable to make an effort to preserve this piece of matzah before it is cleared away. Some add this piece of matzah (if it is still edible) to the cholent of the following Shabbos Hagadol. Those who follow this custom do not consider it a violation of the custom to refrain from eating matzah two to four weeks before Pesach. Others burn this piece of matzah with the chametz the following erev Pesach.
21. Whole loaves of bread or matzos are removed from the table before Birkas Hamazon for two reasons: firstly, so that Birkas Hamazon should not resemble the worship of Jupiter, in which food is placed on the table as part of the service, and secondly, because blessing (in this case Birkas Hamazon) does not rest itself on items that are normally counted, such as whole loaves of bread. Generally, whole loaves do not remain on the table at the end of a meal; however, on Pesach it is common for whole matzos to be left. Therefore this halachah is especially relevant on Pesach.
22. Although it is not customary to wash mayim acharonim (after the meal) during the year, some Rishonim did wash after the Seder meal as a sign of freedom, similarly to the washing for karpas which is not performed throughout the rest of the year.
23. Throughout Pesach, Shir Hama’alos is chanted to the famous melody of Adir Hu.
24. Before Shefoch Chamasecha the door is opened to show that it is Leil Shimurim (a special night of Divine protection). It is an ancient custom to say at this point:

אליהו ומשיח יבואו

Some have a participant wait outside the door dressed up as Eliyahu. When the door opens, he walks in or pretends to fall in and announces the ge’ulah (final redemption) to illustrate our full belief in its speedy arrival. Some use a doll. This practice is not meant to be playful; rather, it is a serious, tangible expression of our faith in the coming of Mashiach.
25. Some have a child call out the “Hodu’s” and the “Ana’s” in a pleasant singing voice. The Rishonim explain that the reason for this is to keep the children awake and to train them in mitzvos, and therefore this is not what the Mishnah (Sukkah 3:10) refers to as a distasteful practice. Still, an adult should sing the verses with the child and be motzi the participants. These verses are chanted to the famous melody of Adir Hu.
26. Yehallelucha is not concluded with the blessing of Melech mehullal batishbachos; rather, it is immediately followed by Hallel Hagadol (the twenty-six verses of Ki le’olam chasdo) and concluded with Yishtabach. Ancient haggados indicate that the Seder continues directly with the chanting of the piyyutim Az Rov Nissim, Ometz Gevurosecha, and Ki Lo Na’eh, followed by the exclamation, “Leshanah haba’ah birushalayim.” After Ki Lo Na’eh, all recite the blessing over the wine and then, while reclining to the left, drink most of the fourth cup of wine. The short version of Al Hagefen is recited, followed by Chasal Siddur Pesach and the rest of the piyyutim.
27. At the end of the Seder it is customary to chant the piyyutim in their Judeo-German translation. The piyyut “Allmechtiger G-tt” is a free translation of Adir Hu and is chanted to the same melody. Of all the translated piyyutim in the haggadah, this piyyut made its mark on sages and laymen alike. Even in recent years when the other translations began slipping out of later editions of the German haggadah, “Allmechtiger G-tt” remained. To this day, even families that are unfamiliar with the old German dialect continue to sing this song with deep feelings of nostalgia. Indeed, it is with this song in mind that we customarily greet each other after services on the Seder night with the salutation “Bau gut” (Build well), as the theme of this piyyut is the rebuilding of the Beis Hamikdash. The piyyutim Echad Mi Yodei’a and Chad Gadya also have poetic translations, which are inserted after each stanza of the original piyyut. To this day there are families who are keeping this tradition alive. Some have the children sing the translation (the Chasam Sofer had his young daughters sing it) to keep them awake until the end of the Seder. Some families have the custom of singing Ein Keilokeinu in translation — Es gibt kein G-tt vie unser G-tt — after Chad Gadya.

MPerlman

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12 Mar 2010 18:08 - 28 Mar 2017 03:39 #1671 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Seder Minhogim
Referring to the Minhogim mentioned above, Rav Hamburger told me that actually there were some families who did eat the egg (and some who didn't), and in some families a Sargenes was worn (and in some not).
Rav Hamburger also told me that the old Minhag was to eat celery for Karpas, but when it was not easy to find, other vegetables were used.
You mentioned Parsley - that is also what my Grandparents (from Berlin and Nuremberg) use.

Michael

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14 Mar 2010 00:51 #1672 by ynathan
Replied by ynathan on topic Seder Minhogim
My father O"bm - from Munich via Ostrowo (between Posen & Breslau) - & my mother O"bm - from Berlin via Frankfurt, Burghaun & Fulda - both remembered curly parsley being used for Karpas. In the US, both curly & flat leaf parsley are available, we always used the curley leaf - also known as Italian parsley.

Bauen Zi Gut


Yehuda Nathan

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14 Mar 2010 15:01 #1674 by MPerlman
Replied by MPerlman on topic Seder Minhogim
Karpas -- Celery vs Parsley

I have done some research on the topic. It seems that in the ancient world there was not much difference between the two. In fact, "parsley" means "rock-celery". However, knowledge of celery as an edible plant seems to have gotten lost (I do not know if parsley was meant as well), as in 1600s France celery was noted as an edible plant. What is also important is that the celery taste to which we are accustomed is not the one which was available historically. When celery was rediscovered as an edible plant, it was quite bitter and strong. It was found that if the plant was shaded three weeks before harvesting, the taste was more mild. This information would seem to make parsley the more likely plant for Karpas, since they anyway belong to the same family. Perhaps someone can ask RBSH if parsley was really meant and if there is a difference.

MPerlman

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14 Mar 2010 20:04 - 23 Apr 2014 13:56 #1675 by MPerlman
Replied by MPerlman on topic Seder Minhogim
I am truly sorry and I thank everyone for citing their family customs about parsley. Because, in fact this custom about parsley is mentioned in the Hebrew Madrich and was ommitted, for reasons unknown, in the English Madrich.

יש הלוקחים לכרפס ירקות אחרים כמו פטרוזיליה, צנון או שחליים (צמח חרדלי

Some use other vegetables for Karpas, such as parsley, radish, or שחליים.

MPerlman

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15 Mar 2010 00:47 #1676 by DDelaney
Replied by DDelaney on topic Seder Minhogim
My Grandmother's family always had gefilte fish as the first course at the Seder instead of the egg.
There was some significance to this, as they usually only had gefilte fish as a first course on Shabbos, and not on Yom Tov unless Yom Tov fell on Shabbos.
The Pesach Seder was the only weekday Yom Tov meal that had gefilte fish as a first course.
Did anyone else's family do this?
Is there a source for this custom?

David

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29 Mar 2015 09:01 #2540 by Schemuel
Replied by Schemuel on topic Seder Minhogim
Does anyone have any insight or knowledge as to whether this week Seder nite being Leil Shabbos {as is now happening 4 out of 5 years}, do we chant Sholom Aleichem & Eshes Chajil at commencement of Seder?

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30 Mar 2015 14:41 #2541 by Seligmann
Replied by Seligmann on topic Seder Minhogim
Do you have a file Word or PDF with these German songs?

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30 Mar 2015 14:48 #2542 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Seder Minhogim
You can find the wrods to Allmachtiger Gott in the this post .
The following user(s) said Thank You: Seligmann

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30 Mar 2015 14:53 #2544 by Seligmann
Replied by Seligmann on topic Seder Minhogim
Do you have the words for the other פיוטים?

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30 Mar 2015 17:30 #2546 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Seder Minhogim

Does anyone have any insight or knowledge as to whether this week Seder nite being Leil Shabbos {as is now happening 4 out of 5 years}, do we chant Sholom Aleichem & Eshes Chajil at commencement of Seder?

Please see this post regarding Sholom Aleichem on Yom Tov when it falls on Shabbos, and Rav Hamburger told me it would be the same on Seider night (although he did mention there could be a place to say that Seider night is different since one has to hurry to the Matzos).

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