Standing For Kaddish
- SBS
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29 Jul 2009 00:57 #1161
by SBS
Standing For Kaddish was created by SBS
What is the original minhag ashkenaz as it relates to standing for Kaddish? Did one always stand for kaddish or was it a matter of "if one was standing then they didn't sit"? Is there a difference between different types of kaddish as to if one must stand? What was done historically in Frankfurt and what is done today in KAJ?
Steven
Steven
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- Michael
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06 Aug 2009 03:12 #1209
by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Standing For Kaddish
Dina Degemoro does not require standing at the time of the Kaddish. Chassidei Ashkenaz used to stand for Omen Y'hei Shmei Rabbo, and then sit down. The Maharil then said, that if one is standing in the Kaddish he should not sit down since this is Bizoyon for the Kaddish, therefore one shouldn't sit after Omen Y'hei Shmei Rabbo.
The Minhag then was that one used to stand in the Kaddish before Borchu, since it is after Yishtabach which is said standing, and in other similar cases too.
On the other hand, R' Yosef Yozfa Shamesh and the Yosef Ometz say one should stand during the Kaddish, and the Chavos Yo'ir says he is surprised that the Maharil didn't stand in the Kaddish.
Michael FRBSH
The Minhag then was that one used to stand in the Kaddish before Borchu, since it is after Yishtabach which is said standing, and in other similar cases too.
On the other hand, R' Yosef Yozfa Shamesh and the Yosef Ometz say one should stand during the Kaddish, and the Chavos Yo'ir says he is surprised that the Maharil didn't stand in the Kaddish.
Michael FRBSH
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- Litvak
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07 Aug 2009 10:04 #1219
by Litvak
Replied by Litvak on topic Standing For Kaddish
To elaborate on some points here -
1) To clarify shitas Mahari"l a bit - from what I heard from Rav Hamurger shlit"a, I believe that his shita is that 'kol kaddish shetofso meumad' - if the kaddish 'catches' one in a standing position - then he should not sit down then in the middle, as it is disrespectful. However, if the kaddish is 'tofeis' someone meyushav ('catches' him in a seated position), we are not matriach him to stand.
2) I find it interesting that some gedolei Ashkenaz, as mentioned above, differed with the shita of the Maharil.
I have seen some Torah from gedolim on this, that even though not from chachmei Ashkenaz ('Yekkes'), nevertheless may shed some light on this matter.
The argument has been made, I believe in the Mishna Berurah, that one should stand, as we see in Tanach, that one of the malchei ho'umos, a great rosho, got sechar, because he rose when he heard the name of Hashem mentioned, so if he did so, we should surely so honor the shem Hashem. On that basis, the minhog of Yeshivos, e.g. Litvishe Yeshivos, is to stand for every kaddish. However, my recollection is that I saw in one of the recently published volumes of the kesovim of the famed gaon the Adere"s, that the Aderes questioned this logic, along the lines of that if one should stand any time the name of Hashem is mentioned, so why don't people stand any time they hear a brocho? It seems like a strong kushya to me. So perhaps that is the logic of the Maharil - that we see that we are not noheig to stand every time we hear shem Hashem.
Litvak
1) To clarify shitas Mahari"l a bit - from what I heard from Rav Hamurger shlit"a, I believe that his shita is that 'kol kaddish shetofso meumad' - if the kaddish 'catches' one in a standing position - then he should not sit down then in the middle, as it is disrespectful. However, if the kaddish is 'tofeis' someone meyushav ('catches' him in a seated position), we are not matriach him to stand.
2) I find it interesting that some gedolei Ashkenaz, as mentioned above, differed with the shita of the Maharil.
I have seen some Torah from gedolim on this, that even though not from chachmei Ashkenaz ('Yekkes'), nevertheless may shed some light on this matter.
The argument has been made, I believe in the Mishna Berurah, that one should stand, as we see in Tanach, that one of the malchei ho'umos, a great rosho, got sechar, because he rose when he heard the name of Hashem mentioned, so if he did so, we should surely so honor the shem Hashem. On that basis, the minhog of Yeshivos, e.g. Litvishe Yeshivos, is to stand for every kaddish. However, my recollection is that I saw in one of the recently published volumes of the kesovim of the famed gaon the Adere"s, that the Aderes questioned this logic, along the lines of that if one should stand any time the name of Hashem is mentioned, so why don't people stand any time they hear a brocho? It seems like a strong kushya to me. So perhaps that is the logic of the Maharil - that we see that we are not noheig to stand every time we hear shem Hashem.
Litvak
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