Singing in Kaddish
- Melech
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16 Jun 2008 13:23 #376
by Melech
Singing in Kaddish was created by Melech
I noticed that some of the sung kaddishim have extensive singing between "da'amiran b'alma" and "v'imru awmein". This presents me with two questions:
1) Since "v'imru awmein" is an instruction to answer "awmein" to the kaddish, it would seem that it needs to be said or sung immediately after "da'amiran b'alma", in order for the "awmein" to go on the kaddish. In fact, if I recall correctly, the Chayyey Odom says that if the chazzan takes too long for "v'imru awmein" then the tzibbur should just answer "omen" immediately after "da'amiran b'alma". So why do some the kaddishim have singing between the two phrases?
2) Aside from the hard to understand placement of the singing before "v'imru awmein", I don't understand why there is any singing in btween the words anywhere. I thought that, aside from birchas Kohanim, one of the main principles for proper nusach hattefillah is that the singing needs to be of the words themselves, as opposed to generalized singing, before, after, or in between them, to allow the music to be tofel to the words as opposed to vice versa. So why do some of the kaddishim have singing in between the words bichlal?
Thanks for all your help in explaining minhogei Ashkenaz
Melech
1) Since "v'imru awmein" is an instruction to answer "awmein" to the kaddish, it would seem that it needs to be said or sung immediately after "da'amiran b'alma", in order for the "awmein" to go on the kaddish. In fact, if I recall correctly, the Chayyey Odom says that if the chazzan takes too long for "v'imru awmein" then the tzibbur should just answer "omen" immediately after "da'amiran b'alma". So why do some the kaddishim have singing between the two phrases?
2) Aside from the hard to understand placement of the singing before "v'imru awmein", I don't understand why there is any singing in btween the words anywhere. I thought that, aside from birchas Kohanim, one of the main principles for proper nusach hattefillah is that the singing needs to be of the words themselves, as opposed to generalized singing, before, after, or in between them, to allow the music to be tofel to the words as opposed to vice versa. So why do some of the kaddishim have singing in between the words bichlal?
Thanks for all your help in explaining minhogei Ashkenaz
Melech
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- Michael
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20 Jun 2008 16:44 #395
by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Singing in Kaddish
In general we can find singing in two places - a very long piece before Musaf of Yomim noro'im (and therefore also on Arvis of Shabbos from Nachamu), after Da'amiron Be'olmo and some short singing on Nigunim Nivchorim.
In Short, the problem of having a long Ve'imru Omen applies only to those words, since you then have finished the Kaddish and you should be saying Omen, and there is no place to stretch those words. But singing before that, after Da'amiron Be'olmo is considered a continuation of the words Da'amiron Be'olmo.
There is a specific to reason to sing after Tushbechoso Venechomoso Da'anmiron Be'olmo, since this is where we Daven that Hashem will "be misnachem" (kivyochol) on the Churbon Beis Hamikdosh, and hopefully will be Menachem us and build Beis Hamikdosh (as explained in the Roke'ach).
See these topics discussed at length by Rav Hamburger at this link .
The singing in Niggunim Nivchorim before Ve'imru Omen (including after Ba'agoloh Uvizman Koriv, and Oleinu Ve'al Kol Yisro'el) are found in Japhet's Kaddeishim too (which most likely means that Rav Hirsch accepted it). Niggunim Nivchorim come to express the Happiness we have on Yomim Tovim, and on Yomim Noro'im after Davening when we're sure our Tefilloh has been accepted. In such cases the melody may not be an explanation to the words, and there is logic to have it sung between the words too.
Michael
In Short, the problem of having a long Ve'imru Omen applies only to those words, since you then have finished the Kaddish and you should be saying Omen, and there is no place to stretch those words. But singing before that, after Da'amiron Be'olmo is considered a continuation of the words Da'amiron Be'olmo.
There is a specific to reason to sing after Tushbechoso Venechomoso Da'anmiron Be'olmo, since this is where we Daven that Hashem will "be misnachem" (kivyochol) on the Churbon Beis Hamikdosh, and hopefully will be Menachem us and build Beis Hamikdosh (as explained in the Roke'ach).
See these topics discussed at length by Rav Hamburger at this link .
The singing in Niggunim Nivchorim before Ve'imru Omen (including after Ba'agoloh Uvizman Koriv, and Oleinu Ve'al Kol Yisro'el) are found in Japhet's Kaddeishim too (which most likely means that Rav Hirsch accepted it). Niggunim Nivchorim come to express the Happiness we have on Yomim Tovim, and on Yomim Noro'im after Davening when we're sure our Tefilloh has been accepted. In such cases the melody may not be an explanation to the words, and there is logic to have it sung between the words too.
Michael
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