Yom Kippur Koton & minhag Ashkenaz
- meirk
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16 Jul 2008 13:25 #452
by meirk
Meir Koschland
Yom Kippur Koton & minhag Ashkenaz was created by meirk
Are there special minhagim for Yom Kipur Koton? According to the Ashkenaz minhag, do we say the "seder yom kipur koton"?
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Meir
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Meir Koschland
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- Michael
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18 Jul 2008 14:05 #460
by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Yom Kippur Koton & minhag Ashkenaz
The minhag of Yom Kippur Koton started about 350 years ago by the Mekubbolim.
It was later accepted in many Kehillos, but in Frankfurt it was not said.
Michael FRBSH
It was later accepted in many Kehillos, but in Frankfurt it was not said.
Michael FRBSH
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- TsviRogin
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10 Oct 2008 14:23 #653
by TsviRogin
Replied by TsviRogin on topic Yom Kippur Koton & minhag Ashkenaz
I used to live across the street from Rav Breslauer's (the elder, z"l, formerly rav in Feurth) shul.
They had a special mincha with selichos every Yom Kippur Koton, and generally had enough people fasting to read Vayechal. We had a kollel upstairs in the Beis Midrash made up almost entirely of Eastern European types, but when needed to mashlim the minyan for YK"K we came down and joined.
Rav Breslauer z'l was extremely Yekeish, but he was also known as a big mekubal.
Tsvi Rogin
They had a special mincha with selichos every Yom Kippur Koton, and generally had enough people fasting to read Vayechal. We had a kollel upstairs in the Beis Midrash made up almost entirely of Eastern European types, but when needed to mashlim the minyan for YK"K we came down and joined.
Rav Breslauer z'l was extremely Yekeish, but he was also known as a big mekubal.
Tsvi Rogin
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- Melech
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12 Oct 2008 01:35 #659
by Melech
Replied by Melech on topic Yom Kippur Koton & minhag Ashkenaz
The selichos of Yom Kippur Koton as published in siddurim appear to me to reflect a compromise of the various minhogei selichos. There are only two selichos before the pizmon, which is the minimum required for minhag Polin, whereas Minhag Ashkenaz requires three. Furthermore, the pesukim hachozrim recited before each selicho start with "krachem av al bonim", in accordance with minhag Polin, but not with Minhag Ashkenaz, which starts with "lashem hayshuoh".
On the other hand, the pesukim "tov Hashem lakol" are said before the pizmon, which is required in minhag Ashkenaz, and not in accordance with minhag Polin in which the pizmon typically has no pesukim recited before it at all. (The only exception I can think of is "Shofet Kol Ha'aretz, before which Minhag Polin recites a collection of pesukim beginning with "Al tavo vemishpot imonu" is recited, a collection that doesn't even end off with the normal pesukim hachozrim). and after the pizmon, the balance of the selichos are not found in any of the Eastern or Western Ashkenazi selichos; they look like were taken straight from the Sephardi selichos recited during Elul.
Did any communities following Minhag Askhenaz that recited selichos on Yom Kippur Koton use a different text than the one found in siddurim today, in order to bring the selichos more in line with Minhag Ashkenaz (say with three selichos before the Pizmon, pesukim hachozrim starting with "lashem Hayshuah", etc.)?
Melech
On the other hand, the pesukim "tov Hashem lakol" are said before the pizmon, which is required in minhag Ashkenaz, and not in accordance with minhag Polin in which the pizmon typically has no pesukim recited before it at all. (The only exception I can think of is "Shofet Kol Ha'aretz, before which Minhag Polin recites a collection of pesukim beginning with "Al tavo vemishpot imonu" is recited, a collection that doesn't even end off with the normal pesukim hachozrim). and after the pizmon, the balance of the selichos are not found in any of the Eastern or Western Ashkenazi selichos; they look like were taken straight from the Sephardi selichos recited during Elul.
Did any communities following Minhag Askhenaz that recited selichos on Yom Kippur Koton use a different text than the one found in siddurim today, in order to bring the selichos more in line with Minhag Ashkenaz (say with three selichos before the Pizmon, pesukim hachozrim starting with "lashem Hayshuah", etc.)?
Melech
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- Michael
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13 Oct 2008 03:35 #667
by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Yom Kippur Koton & minhag Ashkenaz
Slichos on Yom Kippur Koton is not an Ashkenaz Minhag. It was accepted in different places in Ashkenaz, in some places it was done every month, in others every second month, in some twice a year and in some never (like FFDM).
When the Slichos were said in Ashkenaz it included fasting on that day too, and many wore Tallis and Tefillin at Mincho (like theSephardim do on Mincho of a Taanis). The Slichos are a mix of different nusochim - the first Piyyut (Yom Zeh) was written by an Italian Chacham for Yom Kippur Koton. Masat Kappai was written by one of the Rishonim for Mincho of Yom Kippur (as a matter of fact - we said that slicho this year on Yom Kippur). There isn't a Minhag Ashkenaz Nusach for Yom Kippur Koton different than the one printed in the Siddur.
Michael FRBSH
When the Slichos were said in Ashkenaz it included fasting on that day too, and many wore Tallis and Tefillin at Mincho (like theSephardim do on Mincho of a Taanis). The Slichos are a mix of different nusochim - the first Piyyut (Yom Zeh) was written by an Italian Chacham for Yom Kippur Koton. Masat Kappai was written by one of the Rishonim for Mincho of Yom Kippur (as a matter of fact - we said that slicho this year on Yom Kippur). There isn't a Minhag Ashkenaz Nusach for Yom Kippur Koton different than the one printed in the Siddur.
Michael FRBSH
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