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TOPIC: Shir Hamaalos and kaddish before arvis bizmano

Shir Hamaalos and kaddish before arvis bizmano 28 Jan 2010 06:23 #1594

I understand that according to MA, if one orens Arvis after tzeis hakouchovim during the week one recites "Shir HaMaalous Hinay...".
Does one do so as well when one orens after tzeis haKouchovim on Moutzoei Shabbos as well, or does "L'Dovid Boruch" accomplish that? (I don't recall that kaddish is recited after L'Dovid Boruch?)

Rallis
Minhag Avoseinu Torah Hee!
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Shir Hamaalos and kaddish before arvis bizmano 07 Feb 2010 19:17 #1611

  • Michael
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On Motzoei Shabbos one doesn't say Shir Hamaalos hiney borchu..., and Ledovid Boruch is said. Only one or two communities in Hungary said a Kaddish after Ledovid Boruch.

The reason for this is as follows - saying Shir Hamaalos was a minhag restored in the time of the Ari z"l. This was done with Kaddish, since that was how the Ari z"l set the minhag. The Kaddish is said as the beginning of the Tefilloh, like Shacharis has Kaddish before Birkos Krias Shma, so when the Mincho and Maariv are together there is no need for this Kaddish since there is Kaddish Tiskabal after mincha, but when Maariv is Bizmano there is no Kaddish, therefore Shir Hamaalos and Kaddish is said. Ledovid Boruch is an old minhag which was never stopped, and since there was never a Kaddish according to that minhag it was not added later (when Maariv of weekdays got a Kaddish) too.

Michael FRBSH
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Shir Hamaalos and kaddish before arvis bizmano 08 Feb 2010 07:36 #1614

It was stated above re shir hamaalos before arvis bizmano during the week, that "saying Shir Hamaalos was a minhag restored in the time of the Ari z"l. This was done with Kaddish, since that was how the Ari z"l set the minhag."

1) Restored or instituted? If restored, restored from where/when?

2) I am a bit surprised that minhag Ashkenaz accepted this minhag tefillah from the Ari z"l when it didn't accept others. Why was this accepted and others not? I note that Eastern European Ashkenaz doesn't do it. With regard to some other minhogei tefillah from the Ari z"l, Eastern European Ashkenaz accepted them and Western European did not, e.g. mizmor shir and kaddeishim before Boruch She'omar. And in this case it is the reverse?

Litvak
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Shir Hamaalos and kaddish before arvis bizmano 12 Mar 2010 10:00 #1670

  • Michael
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1) In the time of the Ge'onim there was a minhog to say a perek of Tehillim before ma'ariv. The Ari z"l re-instituted the minhog to say a perek (Shir Hamaalos).

2) Shir Hamaalos came into minhag Ashkenaz since it was first said by a small group, Chevras Maariv Bizmano (those who davened Maariv after Mincho anyway had no need for this, as explained above). Later when many people began davening Maariv Bizmano, they davened like the initial group, and that is how it became more common.

Mizmor Shir Chanukas Habayis, was not accepted in Ashkenaz, (besides the fact that the the historical dynamics mentioned above did not apply to it), because halachically there is a problem with saying it according to Minhag Ashkenaz, which holds that pesukei zimroh are said only after Boruch She'omar, since all Brochos are done "Over La'asiyoson" - before the Mitzvoh that the Brocho is applying too.

FRBSH

As a side point - the Ari z"l never instituted Mizmor Shir as a separate mizmor before Boruch Sheomar, but rather as a mizmor to be said after Hodu, which by the Sepharadic minhog is before Boruch She'omar. Some say that according to Minhag Ashkenaz Mizmor Lesoudoh, which is said after Hodu, comes in place of Mizmor Shir according to the Sepharadim.

Michael
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Shir Hamaalos and kaddish before arvis bizmano 19 Jul 2011 18:34 #2006

  • Daniel
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How come nusach Sefard recites more pesukim in Shir Ha'maalos before Ma'ariv then we do?

Daniel
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Shir Hamaalos and kaddish before arvis bizmano 22 Jul 2011 10:26 #2012

  • Michael
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The Ari Z'l brings the Pesukim we say. There are other Kabbalistic Siddurs that bring other Pesukim, and they would be the origin for Minhag Sepharad.

Michael FRBSH
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Shir Hamaalos and kaddish before arvis bizmano 30 Dec 2011 06:40 #2071

  • SBS
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I davened at Breuer's one night during the week of Chanukoh. They did in fact say Shir Hama'alos before Ma'ariv. I assume that this is consistent with what Michael outlined that by the time Maa'riv rolled around after hadlokas neiros it was Ma'ariv b'zmano and therefore warranted the Shir Hamalos. Couple of follow up questions:

1. I thought when Ma'ariv is said right after mincho that no O'leinu is said? Is that correct or is that only Friday night where it is immediately followed by kabbolas Shabbos?? I assume if there is something between mincho and Ma'aariv (like lighting the menorah on Chanukoh ) then O'leinu is required to complete Mincho?

2. It was very interesting to note that they davened Mincho after shekiya. My father and grandfather were very makpid that once shekiya comes you have missed the zeman of mincho and cannot say it.

Steven
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Shir Hamaalos and kaddish before arvis bizmano 07 Jan 2012 18:25 #2079

  • Michael
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Steven wrote:
1. I thought when Ma'ariv is said right after mincho that no O'leinu is said? Is that correct or is that only Friday night where it is immediately followed by kabbolas Shabbos?? I assume if there is something between mincho and Ma'aariv (like lighting the menorah on Chanukoh ) then O'leinu is required to complete Mincho?
Oleinu is said only when one leaves the shul after Mincho. Therefore if Mincho and Maariv are together (even if there is the Menorah in between or Kabbolas Shabbos etc.) no Oleinu is said. See more at this post.
Steven wrote:
2. It was very interesting to note that they davened Mincho after shekiya. My father and grandfather were very makpid that once shekiya comes you have missed the zeman of mincho and cannot say it.
This is an interesting issue, and is discussed at length at this post.

Michael
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