Change Of Pronunciation

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06 Mar 2008 00:29 #123 by rallisw
Change Of Pronunciation was created by rallisw
Please discuss the difference between the vocalization of some common words in the siddur from the Middle Ages and now. Which versions are correct?

Reebee Akivoh
Rehbee Akivoh

Borei P'ri HaGefen
Borei P'ri HaGofen

Mashiv HoRuach UMorid HaGeshem
Mashiv HoRuach UMorid HaGoshem

Melech Mehulol BaTushbochos
Melech Mehulol BaTishbochos

Uv'mikalos Reevovos
Uv'makolos Reevovos

Melech Chai HoOlomim
Melech Chei HoOlomim

Retzon Konayhem
Retzon Konom

Tzohalo V'reeno L'Zecher
Tzoholo V'Reeno L'Zaycher

I also understand that from when Jews arrived in Artzos Ashkenaz they called Shabbos by another name as well, like the Sephardim, Yom HaMonoach Hazeh. That seems consistant with the Yomim Tovim [i.e. Pesach - Chag HaMatzos, Rosh Hashonoh - Yom HaZikoron].

Please address the use of rabbinic / feminine tense in Tefilloh [For example torosoch (Torosecho), naareetzoch (naareetzecho), godloch (godlecho) etc.]?

Rallis

Minhag Avoseinu Torah Hee!

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07 Mar 2008 05:24 #126 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Change Of Pronunciation
Rehbee or reebee: In the past "rehbee" was used ("reebee" was mostly used in Sephardic siddurim). Heidenheim changed it to rabee, but R' Yaacov Emdin held that it should be pronounced rehbee.

Hagofen or hagefen: Until 300 years ago both the option of hagofen and hagefen were used, but the new siddurim printers stuck to hagofen (since this is the end of the sentence).

Hagoshem or hageshem: The nusach was always hageshem, it was changed by Stanov to hagoshem, but it should be pronounced hageshem.

Tushbachos or tishbachos: In all the siddurim in the past tushbachos was used, and in the רמב"ם and the רוקח they also write tushbachos (with the letter ויו). It was changed to tishbachos by the siddurim of R' Shabtai Sofer and R' Eliyohu and Azriel from Wilna.

Chei ha'olomim or chai ha'olomim: Both options are brought in the poskim, yet it seems that chai ha'olomim was more common, and that was the way Rav Hirsh pronounced it.

Koneihem or konom: Almost all of the old siddurim have koneihem, but today konom is said, to make sure there will be no confusion, and it won't sound חלילה as if there are 2 רשויות.

Torosoch or toroscho etc.: In this issue there is a very big mix up in the old siddurim, you can find in one siddur both options (in one place torosoch and in another place toroscho), therefore it's very hard to try to learn from the old siddurim about this.

Michael FRBSH

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12 Mar 2008 03:18 #141 by rallisw
Replied by rallisw on topic Change Of Pronunciation
Please keep in mind, that until the 15th century for the most part, siddurim did not contain vowels at all.

Rehbee or reebee: In the past "rehbee" was used ("reebee" was mostly used in Sephardic siddurim). Heidenheim changed it to rabee, but R' Yaacov Emdin held that it should be pronounced rehbee.

I have 3 Machzorim 1 from 1720 [Bad Homburg R"H & Y"K] and 2 from 1722 [Frankfurt Am Main, Bad Homburg R"H, Y"K, Sholosh Regolim]. All three use the punctuation Reebee.

Hagofen or hagefen: Until 300 years ago both the option of hagofen and hagefen were used, but the new siddurim printers stuck to hagofen (since this is the end of the sentence).

I have a Frankfurt Hagodoh from the 1770's as well as reprints of other Hagodos and they use the word Hagefen exclusively.

Hagoshem or hageshem: The nusach was always hageshem, it was changed by Stanov to hagoshem, but it should be pronounced hageshem.

A rabbi I daven with here, insists that if for no other reason than grammer, it should be HaGoshem. I know nevertheless it's HaGeshem, (same as Kayemes, rather than Kayomes).

Tushbachos or tishbachos: In all the siddurim in the past tushbachos was used, and in the רמב"ם and the רוקח they also write tushbachos (with the letter ויו). It was changed to tishbachos by the siddurim of R' Shabtai Sofer and R' Eliyohu and Azriel from Wilna.

The word pronounced Tushbochos makes no grammatical sense at all. At least one can see the correlation between Tushbechoso in Kaddish and Melech Mehulol BaTushbochos. It is interesting to note that the Machzorim I mentioned above begin with the word written as Tushbochos and conclude with it pronounced Tishbochos. It was a long process to convince people to switch.

Chei ha'olomim or chai ha'olomim: Both options are brought in the poskim, yet it seems that chai ha'olomim was more common, and that was the way Rav Hirsh pronounced it.

From what I understand Chei refers to humans, like in reference to Paroah "chei Pharoah". Chai is in reference to life refering to HaKodosh Boruch Hu.

Koneihem or konom: Almost all of the old siddurim have koneihem, but today konom is said, to make sure there will be no confusion, and it won't sound חלילה as if there are 2 רשויות.

I had an argument with a local rabbi about using the word koneihem. His argument was, as you mentioned that it sounds like there are 2 reshuyos. As Rav Hamburger Shlito said in response to a different inquiry. The Rosh [for example] didn't have a problem with it, why should you?
I found that in almost all Sephardic siddurim Koneihem is used. According to the Siddur HaGro, "Eizor Eliyohu" one writes it as konehem without the yud. Also in regard to the word Adonenu in Ain Kaylokeinu is written likewise without a yud.

Torosoch or toroscho etc.: In this issue there is a very big mix up in the old siddurim, you can find in one siddur both options (in one place torosoch and in another place toroscho), therefore it's very hard to try to learn from the old siddurim about this.

A friend of mine who is more well versed in Kabboloh than I am, explained that using the "feminine" tense, is an attempt to appeal to HaKodosh Borchu Hu in a certain derech. Sephardim still do this today as well.

Rallis

Minhag Avoseinu Torah Hee!

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12 Mar 2008 04:28 #142 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Change Of Pronunciation
Rehbee or reebee: I have 3 Machzorim 1 from 1720 [Bad Homburg R"H & Y"K] and 2 from 1722 [Frankfurt Am Main, Bad Homburg R"H, Y"K, Sholosh Regolim]. All three use the punctuation Reebee.


You are right, at that time reebee was common, but as mentioned above - in the past, before that time, rehbee was used (still in the first printed siddurim), and after the time you mentioned rabee became more common.

Hagofen or hagefen: I have a Frankfurt Hagodoh from the 1770's as well as reprints of other Hagodos and they use the word Hagefen exclusively.

Both were used, and as you mentioned - hagefen was used more than hagofen in the past.

Hagoshem or hageshem: A rabbi I daven with here, insists that if for no other reason than grammar, it should be HaGoshem. I know nevertheless it's HaGeshem, (same as Kayemes, rather than Kayomes).


The nusach was always Hageshem. Stanov changed it to Hagoshem, because he claimed that at an Esnachto the Segol changes to Komotz, but as mentioned - that was not the minhag.

Tushbachos or tishbachos: The word pronounced Tushbochos makes no grammatical sense at all. At least one can see the correlation between Tushbechoso in Kaddish and Melech Mehulol BaTushbochos.

The grammar is something we learn from the language that is used. The loshon of the Tanach is Tishbachos, while the loshon of Chazal is Tushbachos (See Gemoro Sukkah Daf נא Omud ב).

Koneihem or konom: had an argument with a local rabbi about using the word koneihem. His argument was, as you mentioned that it sounds like there are 2 reshuyos. As Rav Hamburger Shlito said in response to a different inquiry. The Rosh [for example] didn't have a problem with it, why should you?

You are right, there is no real problem with it, but since it could cause misinterpretation, it was not used.

Michael FRBSH

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12 Mar 2008 14:24 #146 by Altgold
Replied by Altgold on topic Change Of Pronunciation
Just to add to the mix, gentlemen. . .

In a set of machzorim I have published in Vienna in 1890, it lists the pronunciation of morid hagashem and borei pri hagofen.

In the Roedehleim Haggadah of 1823 it lists the pronunciation of borei pri hagofen.

Brian

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14 Mar 2008 17:11 #155 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Change Of Pronunciation
The Machzorim you mentioned (and of course the Roedelheim Haggodoh) followed R' Wolf Heidenheim. Heidenheim rearranged and tried to clean the siddur from different errors that the printers before his times made, but many times the changes he made were different than the old nusach also. In Frankfurt generally his changes were not accepted for this reason, and researches prove that they were right (the nusach before his changes was closer to the old nusach than the one after his changes).

Michael FRBSH

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