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TOPIC: Morid Ha Tal

Morid Ha Tal 03 Aug 2009 07:49 #1174

Is it the Ashkenazic custom to include this during the amidah? Why or why not?

Brian
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Morid Ha Tal 03 Aug 2009 21:08 #1176

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Saying Morid HaTal is certainly not an Ashkenazic custom, at least not for the last 700 years.
The Tashbetz Katan Siman 101 does report that his Rebbi, Maharam of Rothenburg, announced Morid HaTal on the 1st day of Pesach because in Eretz Yisroel they said Morid HaTal when they did not say Mashiv HaRuach Umorid HaGeshem. But from the fact that he reported that the Maharam did so on the 1st day of Pesach leads one to conclude that he did not say it all summer.
In the Oberland congregation in Jerusalem, which follows the Minhag of Pressburg and Vienna, they do not say Morid HaTal, following the ruling of Rav Wosner of Bnei Brak and Rav Scheinberg of Jerusalem.
Why we do say it in our shul is something I cannot really understand.

MPerlman
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Morid Ha Tal 08 Aug 2009 18:51 #1231

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Old Minhag Ashkenaz was based on Nusach Eretz Yisroel. Later a lot of Nusach Bovel was adopted. Minhag Eretz Yisroel was to say Morid Hatal, and since everyone in Eretz Yisroel now says Morid Hatal therefore there is logic that those who are Noheg Minhag Ashkenaz won't be the only ones clinging to Minhag Bovel not to say Morid Hatal. That is the reason we say Morid Hatal in KAYJ. In Chutz Lo'oretz definitely one should not change the minhag and should not say Morid Hatal.

Michael FRBSH
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Morid Ha Tal 19 Jul 2011 18:53 #2007

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If one's Minhag is not to say Morid HaTal (like most Ashkenazim), when in Eretz Yisroel, must one recite Morid HaTal? Is this considered Minhag HaMakom?

Daniel
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Morid Ha Tal 22 Jul 2011 10:56 #2014

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If he is the Shatz and is saying Chazoras Hashatz, he should recite as is the local minhag in that shul. If he is davening for himself, he may continue without saying Morid Hatal, or say Morid Hatal if he wishes (since he is in EY).

Michael FRBSH
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Morid Ha Tal 28 Jun 2012 08:37 #2091

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Must he say Morid HaTal, with a Patach under the Tes, or with a Komatz? When it comes to Morid HaGeshem, there is a Mesorah. For Morid HaTal there is no Mesorah, since it wasn't done. Is it then up to the discretion of the Shatz how he wants to pronounce it?
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Morid Ha Tal 28 Jun 2012 08:43 #2092

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Michael wrote:
Old Minhag Ashkenaz was based on Nusach Eretz Yisroel. Later a lot of Nusach Bovel was adopted. Minhag Eretz Yisroel was to say Morid Hatal, and since everyone in Eretz Yisroel now says Morid Hatal therefore there is logic that those who are Noheg Minhag Ashkenaz won't be the only ones clinging to Minhag Bovel not to say Morid Hatal. That is the reason we say Morid Hatal in KAYJ. In Chutz Lo'oretz definitely one should not change the minhag and should not say Morid Hatal.

Michael FRBSH

Nevertheless, Rabbeinu Elazar bar Yehuda z"l of Worms, the author of the Rokeach, is clear that the second Brocho of the Amidah does not contain the letter Tes. Therefore, our Mesorah is not to say Morid HaTal anywhere. How can we go against that Mesorah?
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Morid Ha Tal 28 Jun 2012 20:32 #2096

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MPerlman wrote:
Must he say Morid HaTal, with a Patach under the Tes, or with a Komatz. When it comes to Morid HaGeshem, there is a Mesorah. For Morid HaTal there is no Mesorah, since it wasn't done. Is it then up to the discretion of the Shatz how he wants to pronounce it?
This isn't an Ashkenaz question, since this Minhag wasn't practiced in Ashkenaz.
In general - if one says Morid Hagoshem - he says Morid Hatol, because at the end a sentence the Segol becomes a komtz, and the Pasach becomes a komtz too. And since we say Morid Hageshem, and don't consider this as the end of the sentence, many Medakdekim hold we should say Morid Hatal. Yet some Medakdekim say, there is a difference between the two, and although this isn't the end of the sentence there is a pause here, and in a pause one says Morid Hatol (although he says Morid Hageshem). Therefore - every shul should follow its Rov.

Michael FRBSH
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Morid Ha Tal 28 Jun 2012 20:34 #2097

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MPerlman wrote:
Nevertheless, Rabbeinu Elazar bar Yehuda z"l of Worms, the author of the Rokeach, is clear that the second Brocho of the Amidah does not contain the letter Tes. Therefore, our Mesorah is not to say Morid HaTal anywhere. How can we go against that Mesorah?
The Rokeach was definitely talking only about the Minhag practiced then, which was Minhag Bovel, and did not include Morid Hatal.

Michael FRBSH
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Morid Ha Tal 06 Jul 2012 05:36 #2139

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Michael wrote:
MPerlman wrote:
Nevertheless, Rabbeinu Elazar bar Yehuda z"l of Worms, the author of the Rokeach, is clear that the second Brocho of the Amidah does not contain the letter Tes. Therefore, our Mesorah is not to say Morid HaTal anywhere. How can we go against that Mesorah?
The Rokeach was definitely talking only about the Minhag practiced then, which was Minhag Bovel, and did not include Morid Hatal.

Michael FRBSH

I think it is a little presumptuous to make that assumption. When the Rokeach wants to make mention of Minhag Bovel, he does so (see Siman 86 regarding Kiddush). In the instance that we are discussing it is a matter of the presence of specific letters in the Bracha and it is well known that when the Rokeach talks about the presence of specific letters or a specific number of words in a Bracha, he is transmitting the ancient text from the time of the Sages of the Mishnah, from which he warns us not to add or omit, lest our prayers not be accepted on High.
Therefore, he is certainly not definitely talking about the Minhag practised in his temporal era, but rather our time-honoured, age-old, Minhag Ashkenaz.
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Morid Ha Tal 08 Jul 2012 17:00 #2141

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In this case, it is impossible to say that the text transmitted to us by Chazal doesn't allow for Morid Hatal, since the Gemara says that tal and ruach are both optional hazkoros. The Rokeach is presumably talking about the mandatory text of the second bracha, without regard to any optional additions. Reciting Morid Hatal is no more in conflict with the sod than reciting a Mechaye Piyyut that contains the letter tes.
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Morid Ha Tal 08 Jul 2012 21:14 #2142

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Melech wrote:
In this case, it is impossible to say that the text transmitted to us by Chazal doesn't allow for Morid Hatal, since the Gemara says that tal and ruach are both optional hazkoros. The Rokeach is presumably talking about the mandatory text of the second bracha, without regard to any optional additions. Reciting Morid Hatal is no more in conflict with the sod than reciting a Mechaye Pityyut that contains the letter tes.

I am not sure "impossible" is the correct description. The Gemara in Taanis 3b says that if you say "Mashiv HaRuach" during the summer season, you do not return to the beginning. Additionally, if you say "Maavir HaRuach Umafriach HaTal", you do not return to the beginning. I believe that it is to this that you are referring.
However, the Rokeach, not in his Siddur, but in his sefer of HaLacha, a sefer that was widely known for generations, unlike the commentary on the Siddur that I like to study, which was in manuscript until recently, in the sefer of Halacha he only quotes the beginning of that Halacha concerning saying Mashiv HaRuach, but does not include the section on "Mafriach HaTal". A possible deduction is that he holds that one may not say "Mafriach HaTal". See Sefer Rokeach, Hilchos Tefillah, siman 322.
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Morid Ha Tal 13 Jul 2012 13:20 #2150

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MPerlman wrote:
I think it is a little presumptuous to make that assumption. When the Rokeach wants to make mention of Minhag Bovel, he does so (see Siman 86 regarding Kiddush). In the instance that we are discussing it is a matter of the presence of specific letters in the Bracha and it is well known that when the Rokeach talks about the presence of specific letters or a specific number of words in a Bracha, he is transmitting the ancient text from the time of the Sages of the Mishnah, from which he warns us not to add or omit, lest our prayers not be accepted on High.
Therefore, he is certainly not definitely talking about the Minhag practised in his temporal era, but rather our time-honoured, age-old, Minhag Ashkenaz.

We have over here a very clear Masores of Minhag Eretz Yisroel to mention Tal. It isn't logical to say the Rokeach is trying to erase this Minhag. Take into consideration that there are places that we find also contradictions in the Rokeach's number of words etc. and in those cases you have to say that in one place he is reflecting one Minhag, and in the other place he is reflecting another Minhag.

Michael FRBSH
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Morid Ha Tal 26 Aug 2012 22:44 #2177

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לא זכיתי להבין - we have the Mitzvo of "Al Titoush", and since in the last 800 years at least we didn't say Mourid Hatal, there is no reason to start saying because everyone else says. We don't change our Masoures and prayers because there is one Sephardi with a diferent Nusach (there is no conection to Minhag Eretz Isro'el, because our rabbis paskened not to say it according to minhag Bovel).


Breuer writes that there is no diference between Tal & Geshem. They both are changed to Komaetz just in a case of a strong pause. (like Etnachto or Souf posuk.) The mistake comes from the fact that some Madpisim wrote: (Shmous 16-13) "uvabouker hoyso shichvas hatol" in zokef koton. but the correct pronunciation is: "Hatal". This mistake was the result of confusion with next Posuk: "vta'al shichvas hatol" there we write Komatz because it's an Etnachto.
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Morid Ha Tal 02 Sep 2012 02:54 #2178

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I have long maintained that if you hold we should be m'naked the hazkoroh base on how it would be pronounced if the bracha were set with trop, the proper framework of analysis is ta'amaei emes and not taaamei כא. My strong suspicion is that both geshem and tal would wind up with a kamatz in that case.
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