Austrian Minhogim & German Minhogim

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27 Feb 2008 01:56 #71 by Altgold
Austrian Minhogim & German Minhogim was created by Altgold
Other than the common language of German, what can you tell me about similarities between minhogim and/or nusach relative to Jews of Austria, and Vienna in particular, vs. Germany.

It is my understanding that both Rav Hirsch and Rav Hildesheimer had pulpits in Austria.

Are there commonalities between these communities or is the Austrian/Viennese community closer to Eastern European traditions?

Brian

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27 Feb 2008 05:22 - 19 Mar 2017 03:18 #72 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Austrian Minhogim & German Minhogim
In the past there were two minhogim in Europe, מנהג ריינוס and מנהג אוסטרייך. The latter was later practiced in Eastern Europe, and over time therefore came to be known as Minhag Polin. This old Minhag Polin was the minhag that was used in Austria and in Northern Germany, and is much closer to today's Minhag Ashkenaz (of southern Germany) than to the minhag observed in Lithuania, and definitely closer to Minhag Ashkenaz than to Minhag Sfard (used by the Chassidim in Poland).

Michael FRBSH

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13 Aug 2009 23:10 #1310 by MPerlman
Replied by MPerlman on topic Austrian Minhogim & German Minhogim

Brian wrote: It is my understanding that both Rav Hirsch and Rav Hildesheimer had pulpits in Austria.

Rav Hirsch was a Rav in Oldenburg, in the Kingdom of Hanover (Germany). Then he was in Emden (also in Hanover). Then he was Chief Rabbi in Moravia (which is northeast of Austria). Then he was in Frankfurt. Therefore he wasn't a Rav in Austria.
However, except for his Rabbinate in Frankfurt, which followed Minhag Rainus, every other place that he was a Rav, including his birthplace Hamburg, followed Minhag Ostreich.

MPerlman

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14 Aug 2009 01:25 #1325 by Altgold
Replied by Altgold on topic Austrian Minhogim & German Minhogim
It appears from the comments that minhag Rheinus and minhag Ostreich were/are very similar, with minhag Ostreich even being prevalent in a portion of what we now know as Germany.

Can anyone share any insight on the history of how these two roads of minhag diverged, given that they were practiced "next door" to each other?

Can anyone share with me what the key differences are between these two minhagim? As it also appears from the comments that they are closer to each other than they are to sefard or chassidic minhag.

Thanks,

Brian

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17 Aug 2009 03:35 #1331 by Litvak
Replied by Litvak on topic Austrian Minhogim & German Minhogim
What seems virtually 'next door' to us nowadays, with modern advances in transportation and communication, as well as modern unitary states, was not necessarily the case hundreds of years ago.

Litvak

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23 Aug 2009 03:29 #1362 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Austrian Minhogim & German Minhogim
There were small differences between Minhag Ostreich and Minhag Reinus (Ashkenaz), since each place had its own Rabbonim, and the people in each place originated in different places. The Kehillos following Minhag Rienus were older Kehillos and were more conservative then the Kehillos following Minhag Ostreich. The Kehillos following Minhag Ostreich also had many immigrants from France who came to their Kehillos, and therefore they were influenced by the French Minhag too. (In France the Masores was not kept as strongly, and there were certain Minhogim that originated there which Chassidei Ashkenaz were very much opposed too).

Regarding these small changes in Nusach between the two places - in any case Minhag Ostreich is much much closer to Minhag Reinus and Ashkenaz than it is to Minhag Lita (Lithuania) and to the Chassidic Nusach Sepharad.
There are bigger differences found between the two Nuscho'os, and this is in the Piyyutim. But the reason for that is that every Chazzan actually is entitled to choose his own Piyyut, and when eventually certain Piyyutim became standard in the different places, they were different in the area following Ostreich and Reinus.

Michael FRBSH

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05 May 2011 13:37 #1965 by YMFreiburger
Replied by YMFreiburger on topic Austrian Minhogim & German Minhogim
Does anyone have information about Nusach Vienna ?
Or about the Ashkenazi Nusach used in Northern Italy ?

Thanks

Yosef-Meir

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06 May 2011 20:39 #1967 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Austrian Minhogim & German Minhogim
Minhag Vienna followed Minhag Ostreich (as mentioned above, the old Minhag Polin), and in northern Italy Minhag Reinus was followed (the Minhag of southern Germany).

Michael FRBSH

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28 Jun 2012 05:19 #2089 by MPerlman
Replied by MPerlman on topic Austrian Minhogim & German Minhogim
Here are a few differences between Minhag Ostreich (MO) and Minhag Rainus (MR):

1. When putting on Tefillin, before wrapping the Tefillin around the arm, one wraps one time around the Titurah. (MO)

2. Children start wearing a Tallis before Bar Mitzvah (MR). At Bar mItzvah. (MO)

3. When the Baal Korei reads Shiras HaYam or Aseres Hadibros, the Reader reads the whole thing aloud. (MR) Only the first and last verse and the rest the congregation reads from Chumashim. (MO)

4. If someone had a name added due to illness, he is called to the Torah with both names. (MO) Only by his original name. (MR)

5. In Musaf of Shabbos, we say "V'es Musaf Yom HaShabbos HaZeh" (MR) instead of "Yom HaManoach HaZeh". (MO)

6. After Nishmas on Shabbos Breishis we do not say the beginning and end of the piyut "Mi Eder Vahod" (MR). They (MO) do.

7. On Mondays and Thursdays, a Chosson exits the shul so the Tzibbur can say Tachanun (MR), unlike (MO) who do not say Tachanun in that circumstance.

8. A special Haftarah is recited for a Chosson after the usual one (MO). Not in (MR).

9. In (MR) the leftmost new candle is lit on Chanuka. In (MO) it is the rightmost.

10. In (MR) the 3rd meal is eaten on Shabbos before Mincha. In (MO) it is after Mincha.

11. In (MR) they eat at the 3rd meal on Shabbos, cooked eggs with parsley and vinegar. In (MO) they do not.

12. In (MR) only Jews draw the water for Mayim Shelanu. In (MO) even gentiles.

13. In (MR) tumeric is not used on Pesach. In (MO) it is used.

14. In (MR) the blessing of HaTov V'HaMeitiv is recited on any new wine that was brought to the table. In (MO) only if it is especially tasty.

15. In (MR) "SheHaSimcha Bimono" is said at a Pidyon HaBen. Not in (MO).

More another day.

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28 Jun 2012 15:32 #2090 by MPerlman
Replied by MPerlman on topic Austrian Minhogim & German Minhogim
Continuing. (MR) is Minhag Rainus. (MO) is Minhag Ostreich.

16. On Tisha B'Av that falls on Shabbos (like this year), in (MR) an announcement is made in shul that mourning practices that can be done privately, are done. In (MO) no such announcement is made.

17. In (MO) on Purim, Mincha is prayed at Mincha Gedola. In (MR) at Mincha Ketana.

18. In (M0) the seven blessings are recited on all seven days of feating for a wedding. In (MR) only at the wedding and the first two meals on Shabbos.

19. In (MO) they stop the Elul-shofar blowing on Erev Rosh HaShana. In (MR) three days before Rosh HaShanah.

20. In (MR) it is permitted to make a Spinholtz or Forshpiel on Shabbos Chazon. In (MO) it is not.

21. In (MR) the blessing of "Elokai Neshamah" is said after "Asher Yotzar". In (MO) it is said after "Birchos HaTorah".

22. In (MR) a Tallis is worn for Kol Nidrei. In (MO) it is not worn.

23. In (MO) the chickens of Kaporos themselves are given to the poor. In (MR) the chickens are exchanged for money and the money is given to the poor.

24. The Chanuka Menorah is placed between east and west in (MR). In (MO) it is placed between north and south.

25. In (MO) Birkas HaLevanah is said before Yom Kippur. In (MR) it is said after.

26. Women begin counting the Seven Clean Days at the conclusion of seven days following the sighting of blood in (MO). Not so in (MR).

27. In order for something to be N"Nosein Taam Lifgam", in (MR) 24 hours must pass. In (MO), only 12 hours are necessary.

28. If blood is found in an egg. In (MR) the whole egg is discarded. In (MO) the blood is removed and the rest of the egg is eaten.

29. If someone is released from prison, In (MR) his friends splash water on his face and say "Boruch Matir Asurim". In (MO) there is no such practice.

30. In (MO) "Vihi Noam" is recited on Motzaei Shabbos in a Beis Avel. Not in (MR).

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29 Jun 2012 03:20 #2095 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Austrian Minhogim & German Minhogim
Thank you for this very nice and long list. Could you please bring sources to the different Minhogim you brought? Rav Hamburger told me that many of the Minhogim brought above were right only at some times, and changed (both in MR, and even more in MO) at other times, (and for some of the Minhogim he couldn't give a source at all off hand), therefore sources will be very helpful, because they can also help define about what date we are speaking.

Michael

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29 Jun 2012 04:20 - 29 Jun 2012 13:51 #2098 by MPerlman
Replied by MPerlman on topic Austrian Minhogim & German Minhogim
I found the list (these are not all that I found there, just a selection) in Otzar HaGedolim, Vol. 1, in a section titled "Minhagei Rainus UMInhagei Ostreich", starting on the bottom of page 78. You can access the Sefer on Hebrew Books at this link . It is on page 105 of the PDF. He brings sources for each one but some that I tried to check out, I did not find.
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29 Jun 2012 14:04 - 06 Jul 2012 02:23 #2099 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Austrian Minhogim & German Minhogim
Yashar Coach! It seems that the sources brought there are Maharil and Terumas Hadeshen.

I saw some slight changes - The MR which is brought for the Tallis is to wear it "אף קודם שנושאים אשה", which means before the wedding. But it could be a טעות סופר, because it doesn't fit with the rest of the sentence. I wouldn't be surprised if they are referring to the Minhag brought in the Maharil that one puts on a Tallis only when he is married, see this thread ).
The Minhag of saying Mi Eder Vahod is brought as MR (but it seems we don't have it today).
In MO they considered Nosen Ta'am Lifgam after a night (but not after 12 hours in the day).

Michael

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18 May 2017 06:03 #2809 by NMuhlgay
Replied by NMuhlgay on topic Austrian Minhogim & German Minhogim
Do we still read Shiras haYam and Ŋaseres haDibros quietly rather than having the ba'al k'riah recite them aloud?

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