Chataf Patach under a reish

More
16 Aug 2009 23:14 #1330 by Melech
Chataf Patach under a reish was created by Melech
What are the rules that determine when, according to the nikkud of Rav Heidenheim v'siyato, a reish that otherwise would get a sheva na gets a chataf patach instead? The only thing I've I've so far been able to (I believe) conclusively determine is that the reish must be proceeded by a vowel, so (with the possible exception of a a reish proceeded by another reish that has a shva nach), any reish proceeded by {a consonant with a shva nach underneath it}, or that begins a word (like the reish in ראובן), will have a shva na and not a chataf patach underneath it. But a there are many more cases in which a reish has a shva na even according to Rav Heidenheim, and after sampling many different cases, I'm at a loss to figure out the rules. The rules are important to know for one who is noheig to pronounce words like this shittah but using a text that doesn't follow it. So I'd really like to know the rules that determine when the shva na underneath the reish gets changed to a chataf patach.

Thanks,
Melech

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
18 Aug 2009 14:29 #1343 by BAvis
Replied by BAvis on topic Chataf Patach under a reish
Regarding the chataf-patach under the reish I'm not sure if this is Heidenheim's shita or not. If you look in the Roedelheim printings that were done during his lifetime you will find that the only (to my knowledge) word with a chataf-patach under a reish is the word ברכו when it appears in kapitel 135 of Tehilim, which we say on Shabbos and Yom Tov. But, when it appears in all other places it simply has a shva (na). And in Birkas Yotzer of Shacharis the word משרתים has a regular shva (na).
Whereas when you look in Roedelheim printings done after his lifetime which Dr. Seligmann Baer was מגיה you find they all have a chataf-patach. And in the notes to his Seder Avodas Yisroel on the word Bor'chu he writes: ברכו הרי"ש בחטף פתח כן צריך לומר על פי המסרת, שכל לשון ברכה אם יהיה הנגון על הבי"ת הרי"ש בשבא נח ואם הנגון על הכ"ף הרי"ש בחטף פתח חוץ מן אחד ולעלאה ברכת (דניאל ד':לא) ותמה על רוו"ה שלמעלה בפסוקי דזמרה נקד בית ישראל ברכו (רי"ש בחטף פתח) את ה' כדינו, וכאן שכח הכלל
In his notes to the words m'shor'sov and m'shor'sim he writes: משרתים הרי"ש בחטף פתח וכן משרתיו כן צריך לומר וכן כל לשון שרת אשר נגון בתי"ו וכן כל לשון גרש ולשון ברך והוא בעבור אות הרי"ש, וראה למעלה במלת ברכו ודברי מ"ש לבראשית י"ב, וכן כתב בהדיא בן-אשר במסורותיו
In a forward titled דברי המגיה to the 1855 printing of the Roedelheim S'lichos (perhaps it appears in other Roedelheim printings I'm not sure) Dr. Seligmann Baer writes:
אומר יצחק בן אריה. בשנת תקצ"ד ויצא מתחת מכבש דפוס האדון לעהרבערגער סדר סליחות מוגה על פי סדור שהניח החריו ברכה רוו"ה ז"ל שהגיהו אף בארו בקצת מקומות, ומאז ועד עתה שוב נדפס סדר זה פעמים הרבה. אך ראיתיו ובדקתיו בעיון דק ומצאתי כי בכל מטהרו הונח עוד מקום לי להתגדר בו בכמה מקומות אשר נשארו מוטעות אם לענין נקודן אם לענין נוסחן. וע"כ קרבתי והגהתי עוד הפעם את כל הסדר ע"פ כללי הדקדוק וע"פ סדורים כי"י אשר חנני ה' והביאם לפני, ושמתי כל מגמתי שיצא סדר סליחות הזה מלובן ומזוקק מכל אשר היו לפניו. רעדעלהיים, חדש אדר תרט"ו לפ"ק.
Hope this finds you well.

BAvis

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
21 Aug 2009 03:08 #1355 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Chataf Patach under a reish
I would like to thank BAvis for this most interesting point.

See some more about this question in general at this post .

Michael

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
21 Aug 2009 21:22 #1360 by Melech
Replied by Melech on topic Chataf Patach under a reish
Thank you BAvis very much for your information. Does anyone know of any כללים for roots other than שרת, ברך, and גרש?

Thanks,

Melech

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
23 Aug 2009 13:04 #1363 by BAvis
Replied by BAvis on topic Chataf Patach under a reish
On further searching I did find in Roedelheim printings done in Heidenheim's lifetime that he also used a chataf patach under the reish of the word Bor'chi from ברכי נפשי. Also in Heidenheim's printing of Toras HoElokim (Offenbach 1798?) which is only on B'reishis he puts a chataf-patach under the reish of the word (והתברכו (בראשית כב:יח, as well as in other analogous places where the shoresh ברך appears. However it still seems unclear if in the places where he doesn't use a chataf-patach that it was an oversight as Dr. Baer seems to think. Regarding other שרשים , the common denomenator of the three that Dr. Baer sites: שרת, גרש, ברך as you have well gathered is the reish as the middle letter. When he says, וכן כל לשון גרש ולשון ברך והוא בעבור אות רי"ש I understood this to mean that the chataf-patach comes in place of an additional reish. Why? Perhaps since generally a reish does not accept a dagesh (although I don't know why it would get one after a תנועה גדולה anyway) instead an additional reish is supposed to come in its place, but כדי להקל על הלשון a chataf-patach comes in place of the additional reish.? Whether or not my understanding is correct perhaps you can extrapolate the rule out to other שרשים of which the עין הפעל is a reish.? Look in the מנחת שי to B'reishis 12:3, who mentions the rule and cites other sources.

BAvis

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Powered by Kunena Forum