Hirsch Siddur
- Israel
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21 Jul 2015 14:40 #2599
by Israel
Hirsch Siddur was created by Israel
I have heard that the Hirsch siddur has some Eastern European elements in it, eg it puts birchas hatorah before birchos hashachar and contains the mishnah from peah. However, I did a comparison and it seems to me the Hebrew text and order is taken from Rodelheim. Seems even the typeset is from there. Can anyone comment on this? What siddur did Hirsch use? His commentary on the siddur includes comments on the mishnah from peah.
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- NMuhlgay
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22 Jul 2015 08:47 #2600
by NMuhlgay
Replied by NMuhlgay on topic Hirsch Siddur
The Hirsch Siddur did use the Rödelheim text. However, as R' Hamburger mentions in the madrich to Minhag Ashkenaz, R' Heidenheim's siddurim did not always conform fully to the German usages, e.g. birchaus haTauroh, seder hakorbonaus, and birkas minim.
As such, the Hirsch Siddur even includes some elements which were strongly avoided in Germany, such as "Ana bechau'ach" and B'rich Shemeh.
I am presently working on a siddur and while I was initially using the Hirsch Siddur for reference, I decided to refrain from doing so for the text due to the difficulty of parsing a fully authentic text from Rödelheim.
As such, the Hirsch Siddur even includes some elements which were strongly avoided in Germany, such as "Ana bechau'ach" and B'rich Shemeh.
I am presently working on a siddur and while I was initially using the Hirsch Siddur for reference, I decided to refrain from doing so for the text due to the difficulty of parsing a fully authentic text from Rödelheim.
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- Michael
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23 Jul 2015 00:26 - 23 Jul 2015 00:26 #2601
by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Hirsch Siddur
Rav Hirsch's Siddur was printed after the Petiroh of Rav Hirsch. The printer wanted the Siddur to sell throughout central Europe, where the majority of the comunities followed Nusach Polin, therefore you can't learn anything from the Nusach of that Siddur.
Michael FRSBH
Michael FRSBH
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- Israel
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23 Jul 2015 15:58 #2603
by Israel
Replied by Israel on topic Hirsch Siddur
The Hirsch Siddur includes comments on the mishnah in Pe'ah which minhag polin puts after birchos hatorah. Did R' Hirsch's German commentary on siddur include such comments or did the publisher of the Hirsch Siddur in English pull Hirsch's comments on that Mishnah from somewhere else? My question is obviously, if R' Hirsch said birchos hatorah before korbanus and didn't read the mishnah from pe'ah (mitzvos for which there is no shiur) then why did Hirsch comment on it in his commentary on siddur?
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- Israel
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23 Jul 2015 16:02 #2604
by Israel
Replied by Israel on topic Hirsch Siddur
What siddur would you recommend for an authentic minhag ashkenaz? I have Siddur Tefiloh Sefas Yisroel by Rabbi Rallis Wiesenthal. But wouldn't that be minhag Hamburg? I'm looking for Frankfurt.
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- NMuhlgay
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23 Jul 2015 19:52 #2605
by NMuhlgay
Replied by NMuhlgay on topic Hirsch Siddur
R' Rallis Wiesenthal's siddur was originally minhag Homburg. Homburg is practically right next to Frankfurt, although more recent editions have been brought more in line with Minhag Frankfurt in accordance with R' Hamburger שליט”א. I personally have some difficulties with R' Wiesenthal's siddur, so I just use regular Ashkenaz siddur and amend per the nuscha'aus given in the madrich.
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- Israel
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02 Aug 2015 12:23 - 07 Aug 2015 18:45 #2615
by Israel
Replied by Israel on topic Hirsch Siddur
The Hirsch siddur is supposed to be his translation plus his commentary. Yet you'll see translated the minhag polin text for keil erech apaim said when taking out the sefer Torah. I'm guessing that most of it is his translation but somebody else translated the minhag polin parts - parts that did not appear in his siddur. But that's just a guess.
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- NMuhlgay
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02 Aug 2015 21:25 #2618
by NMuhlgay
Replied by NMuhlgay on topic Hirsch Siddur
I guess it's possible that he said those portions b'yochid, considering that he was from Altona, which as part of Hamburg, followed certain Polish usages, although I have yet to see how it compares with either Minhag Frankfurt or Minhag Polin proper.
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- Michael
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07 Aug 2015 19:47 #2635
by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Hirsch Siddur
Regarding the translation - the printers say it was taken from his writings (after he passed away), and it could very well be so. As mentioned above, Rav Hirsch wasn't born in FFDM, and the nusach in the Siddur could be from his earlier time, before he came to FFDM.
Michael FRBSH
Michael FRBSH
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