Motza'ei Shabbos recitations/zemiros

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12 Aug 2009 03:12 #1270 by MPerlman
Motza'ei Shabbos recitations/zemiros was created by MPerlman
What is the Minhag Ashkenaz to say and sing before and after Havdala at home? I have heard that the Minhag is to say "Gott fun Avraham" and sing Eliyahu HaNavi and Hamavdil. Are these things Minhag Ashkenaz and what is the סדר הדברים? Also, is it a MA to say Ribon on MS and where does it fit in the סד"ה?

MPerlman

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13 Aug 2009 23:51 #1313 by MPerlman
Replied by MPerlman on topic Motza'ei Shabbos recitations/zemiros
I noticed that R' Hamburger sings כספנו before זרענו? Is this the MA? Did not the בני גד ובני ראובן make this same mistake when they put their livestock (money) before their kids?
Also, he sings חטאתנו ימחול instead of חטאתנו הוא ימחול. Is that MA?

MPerlman

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13 Aug 2009 23:55 #1314 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Motza'ei Shabbos recitations/zemiros
In the Rodelheim Machzor for Yom Kippur (Goldschmidt edition page 349), this is the Nusach:
המבדיל בין קדש לחול חטאתינו ימחול, כספנו וזרענו ירבה כחול וככוכבים בלילה
But when Benno Weis sings it (in his recording for Ne'iloh Yom Kippur) he says זרענו וכספנו.

Michael

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20 Aug 2009 23:57 #1349 by MPerlman
Replied by MPerlman on topic Motza'ei Shabbos recitations/zemiros
Does what Benno Weis sings or what is found in a Roedelheim Siddur establish what is the accepted Minhag Ashkenaz?

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21 Aug 2009 03:00 #1354 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Motza'ei Shabbos recitations/zemiros

MPerlman wrote: What is the Minhag Ashkenaz to say and sing before and after Havdala at home? I have heard that the Minhag is to say "Gott fun Avraham" and sing Eliyahu HaNavi and Hamavdil. Are these things Minhag Ashkenaz and what is the סדר הדברים? Also, is it a MA to say Ribon on MS and where does it fit in the סד"ה?

Generally, all the Zemiros you mentioned are Minhag Ashkenaz, and some others could be said too, but these are the most common ones. There is no rule about what comes first and what next. Usually Hamavdil was said after Havdolo.
Ribon is considered a Techino with roots in the Yerushalmi.

MPerlman wrote: I noticed that R' Hamburger sings כספנו before זרענו? Is this the MA? Did not the בני גד ובני ראובן make this same mistake when they put their livestock (money) before their kids?

The Chasam Sofer says that כספנו comes before זרענו, this is the way most old Machzorim say and therefore this is the Nusach. He explains that the logic in this is because the Piyyut continues כחול וככוכבים, and the first of the two mentioned is to be blessed as חול, and the second is to be blessed as כוכבים. Since we do not care what type of money we have, but we do care what type of children we have, therefore we say כספנו first, so it will be blessed to be a lot like sand, and next זרענו, which we want to be a lot and also of high quality as the stars.

FRBSH

MPerlman wrote: Does what Benno Weiss sing or what is found in a Roedelheim Siddur establish what is the accepted Minhag Ashkenaz?

Generally what is printed in the Rodelheim, or what Benno Weis says (which is what he heard from the Chazzan in FFAM), would be closer to Minhag Ashkenaz than what is printed in today's modern Siddurim.

Michael

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06 Oct 2009 17:00 #1452 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Motza'ei Shabbos recitations/zemiros

MPerlman wrote: I noticed that R' Hamburger sings כספנו before זרענו? Is this the MA? Did not the בני גד ובני ראובן make this same mistake when they put their livestock (money) before their kids?

See a long discussion on this issue in Divrei Kehillos page 310. He concludes one should say כספינו וזרעינו, and he explains the difference between this and Bnei Gad. (And in page 462 he brings in brief the Chasam Sofer's teirutz).

Michael

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