Talleisim for bochurim

More
18 Feb 2008 19:30 #36 by Melech
Talleisim for bochurim was created by Melech
The Maharil seems to record the minhag Rhinus b'davka as the group whose bochurim don't wear a tallis, as opposed to the B'nei Ostreich who do. Why is it then that bizmanenu those who follow the Minhogei Rhinus wear tallisos as bochurim and some of those who follow Minhag Ostreich don't (the Polish/Lithuanian Minhog does not, while the bochurim of Oberland/East Germany do wear)?

Melech

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
18 Feb 2008 19:46 - 06 Jul 2012 02:18 #38 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Talleisim for bochurim
In the past, before גזירות ק"ט , in Minhag Rhinus as well the bochurim wore a tallis, and this was stopped in the time of גזירות ק"ט (most likely because of the poverty at that time, and the high cost of a tallis then).

The Chavos Yo'ir, Chasam Sofer and Rav Hirsch restored the Minhag of bochurim wearing a tallis once the economic situation improved in Germany (and all of Western Europe), and that is why in our days this Minhag is practiced by all Jews of western Europe.

Michael FRBSH

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
23 Jan 2009 05:23 #831 by MPoppers
Replied by MPoppers on topic Talleisim for bochurim
Forum members may be interested in reading from Seifer MaHaRYL on this topic for themselves -- in this case, the relevant Hilchos Nisuin section is at the bottom of the page which can be located via hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8918&pgnum=129 .

All the best from
Michael Poppers

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
25 Jan 2009 03:36 - 06 Jul 2012 02:19 #836 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Talleisim for bochurim
In the book Maharil, the following words are brought:
בארץ מולדתי בריינוס נוהגין שגם נערים גדולים אין מתעטפין בציצית עד שנושאין אשה, וסמכוה להך דכתיב "גדילים תעשה לך" וסמיך ליה כי יקח איש אשה
Translation: In Rinus one does not wear a Tallis until he is married, because of a Drosho of Smuchim - the Posuk of wearing a Tzitzis is just before the Posuk of getting married.

The book Maharil was not written by the Maharil, it was written by a Talmid, based on the Droshos the Maharil gave. The Maharil's son mentions that some of the things the Maharil said as Droshos were not intended to be printed, and were said "בדרך דרוש". This Drosho of smuchim is not brought by anyone else as a reason for not wearing the Tallis, but is brought much before the Maharil as a source of using a Tallis for the chupoh in the wedding (as seen in Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz volume #3, page 435 and on). The Maharil added in Derech Drush in his Drosho that this could be an explanation for starting to wear a Tallis after the wedding, but this definitely is not an Halachic reason.

Michael FRBSH

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
28 Jan 2009 04:51 #845 by MPoppers
Replied by MPoppers on topic Talleisim for bochurim
With respect, that first-person quote from Seifer MaHaRYL represents the words of a shoeil to MaHaRYL and not the thoughts of MaHaRYL -- that's precisely why I noted the online availability of this Seifer, so that everyone can see for himself that MaHaRYL answered the shoeil based on the shoeil's minhag hamaqom but that one cannot infer what was the custom of MaHaRYL or the community which MaHaRYL guided. Thanks.

All the best from Michael Poppers

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
01 Feb 2009 02:52 #860 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Talleisim for bochurim
Many thanks for this important point. As you mentioned, the Drosho of Ki Yikach etc. is from the Talmid of the Maharil who wrote the book, and is a quote of Rabbonim in Rhinus. This Drosho was not the reason the Tallis was not worn, most likely the reason the Tallis was not worn by Bochorim was because of its high price, and the Drosho may have been an explanation why to choose the wedding as a time one should make an effort in any case to have a Tallis.

Michael

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
16 Feb 2009 04:18 #895 by meirk
Replied by meirk on topic Talleisim for bochurim
Is the minhog that children wear Talis before their bar mitsva?

Toda

Meir

Meir Koschland

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
20 Feb 2009 17:09 #899 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Talleisim for bochurim
Whoever can afford it economically, buys a Tallis for his children even before the Bar Mitzvoh.

FRBSH

In KAYJ there are many children who wear Talleisim much before they are Bar Mitzvoh.

Michael

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
24 Mar 2009 14:30 #952 by YCohen
Replied by YCohen on topic Talleisim for bochurim
I thought most people get their tallis when they bring their "wimpel" to shul (around 3 or 4 years of age)?

YCohen

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
29 Mar 2009 03:55 - 06 Jul 2012 02:20 #971 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Talleisim for bochurim
There were times when only married men wore a Tallis (as mentioned above), later the Minhag of Bochurim wearing Talllis was restored, and later also boys before Bar Mitzvoh wore a Tallis, but definitely the Tallis was not worn before the age of קטן היודע להתעטף.

Michael FRBSH

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
06 Jan 2010 04:05 #1575 by SBS
Replied by SBS on topic Talleisim for bochurim
If a boy (younger than Bar-Mitzvah age) does wear a tallis, then should he not put it over his head just as any married male does? It seems that bochurim as well as men between bar mitzvoh and marriage commonly will wear a hat, as opposed to putting the tallis over their head. What is the connection then between wearing the tallis over the head and being married?

Steven

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
08 Jan 2010 03:04 #1581 by DDelaney
Replied by DDelaney on topic Talleisim for bochurim
I can't remember the exact source or its significance, but I believe there is a Gemarah that mentions not covering your head with your tallis until you are married.

David

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
31 Jan 2010 14:51 - 06 Jul 2012 02:20 #1598 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Talleisim for bochurim
The Mogen Avrohom (siman ח , seif koton ג ) is midayeik from the Gemoro in Kiddushin (daf כט) that an unmarried bochur should not cover his head with the tallis, and from the gemara in Kiddushin (daf ח) that someone who isn't a Talmid Chochom shouldn't cover his head even if he is married.

In Ashkenaz this Mogen Avrohom wasn't followed (they learned differently in the Gemoro in Kiddushin), and in the Yeshivoh of the Chasam Sofer the unmarried bochurim covered their heads with the tallis.

It is quite surprising that those following the Polish Minhag do not follow the second part of the Mogen Avrohom, although they do follow the first part.

As Steven wrote, today unmarried bochurim commonly will wear a hat, as opposed to putting the tallis over their head, and this is the Minhag in KAYJ and in Rav Hamburger's shul too (only married men cover their heads with it).


Michael FRBSH

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Powered by Kunena Forum